Post by frank on Jun 22, 2009 14:32:52 GMT
Marco: Gameness is an act of behaviour that excists in all living animals
Frank: Gameness is not a act of behavior, and there would be not a dogman in the World considdering it to be that. Gameness is part of the character of the dog, and you only know that they have it on the moment they need it. It is not something you can activate, its just there.
Marco: there was a start where gameness was not as far developped and training methods for this behaviour not yet discovered.
Frank: There is NO training method for gameness. There is a training method to learn and train the fightingdog to be a better pitdog(also claimed by some not to be true), but gameness is there or it isn’t. Starting the gamedog at a young age is not making him game, its just the way to start the dog slowly, and don’t destroy him in the process of learning.
It’s the same as with kids who have a talent for something, if parents expect too much from them at the start, the will to carry on can dissapear because of the pressure. Same with the gamedog, some can start to dislike it(although there are dogs who carry on no matter how young), although the gameness is there we will not see it anymore in this activity. But still the talent/gameness is there, if it’s not there we can not bring it into them.
Marco: I think you made a small mistake to talk about the end of the process emidiatly the ultimate Game dog. It took generation after generation to gain it and it was all done by real staffords.
Frank: You are right, it took generations of hard culling to get the endproduct, the Pitdog. And even after these generations it takes a tough breeder to test the litters that he breeds and select the game ones, as not all will be that. If not tested properly the chance of breeding with curs increases. And the change of breeding litters with less and less game pups is also growing. Let alone 10 to 20 generations not tested!!!!
Marco: Maybe just as game as the ones we have today be they bred for conformation or for sports is besides the point as the beginning was not bred for the purpose of dogfighting Dogfighting was just one of those canine activity's that claimed it's own evolution of which our generation has seen the end result of that evolution process. And that is your refferation square and that by far does not cover the story.
Frank: Marco it does not matter against what refferention square we are holding the term game, game as game is meant in our Bull Terrier breeds is just only pointing to one specific Game, and that has everything to do with the box.
And no, more than 90% of our Staffords these days are not game. Yes we all like to think so because of our romantic view on the breed, but we can count on it that its gone. They can have a tenacious character, but that is not game.
Marco: On the other hand it seems that you only need gameness for the gamedog but Gameness in for instance dog fighting is a tool to rely on in the pit and by that meaning made important. but from my point of view you need a huge package of fighting ability's (which rely on physics) and enough gameness to do the job and from the gambling part to rely on it will do the job even when it means death because it gave a last chance to win the match when the other dog didn't stay with his opponent. But when the gamest dog was killed by the best fighter it still was the dog that lost. so in the stituation of the gamedog be they stafford or pitbull it is not gameness that was the most important but the whole package the gameness and the physics was the goal.
Frank: Yes they need also good fighting skills. But when the other dog is game too it plays a bigger part. Because there are instances where Bandogs, Rottweilers etc where matched against much smaller Pits with weights that where almost half, but still they won. They won because these other breeds failed to carry on fighting when they got in grave danger where the much more hurt Pitbull carried on no matter what.
And again yes, fighting abillity is also important, but gameness first, as that is the most difficult part to capture and keep.
Marco: And gameness is a type of behaviour that developpes partly in genes and partly by enviromentand that depents on skills to survive.
Frank: The enviroment only plays a part in the fact that it will give a chance to show it or not. Again, it’s there or it isn’t.
Marco: When a dog wins a batlle he did not prove gameness he had proved to be a winner.
Frank: depends on the fight and the opponent. But in many cases your right.
Marco: the most succesfull dogmen in the history of fighting dogs had the skills to developp the right mix of enviroment fysics and gameness. So from my point of view a game dog is made.
Frank: In my(and I think most gamedogman will agree) opinion, they where good in testing their dogs to the limit, and selecting the game ones. In this process they also could see the most talented fighters. Some had a better eye for these aspects then others, and also in selecting the broodstock there where bigger and lesser Gods.
Neill: We will never see it again but that does not mean our dogs do not have the foundations to be game, with selection and the means for it to be achieved again it could be.
Frank: Yes also the Wolf has the foundation somewhere, it only took us a few thousand years of selection. So be my guest Gone is gone, and it will take more than a lifetime to get back to acceptable levels for the dogfighter.
Neill: Do we really require it? in my opinion no, we have amongst us descendents of the most couragous animals in the world, and should honour there descendents by breeding highly confident, drivey and correctly constructed animals with solid temperment. Todays dogs are more than sufficient at what we ask of them
Frank: Looking it from your point of view like this you are right. But was the question or we needed it? As this was the question we could have ended this already pages before
Neill: Concentrating on the head of the EBT is detrimental when breeding, concentrating on on single element of construction rather than the whole package in any animal is wrong, so maybe its a good thing the Game gene has gone ?
Frank: Depends what you value in your dogs I think, and what you need.
Neill: Who'd of thought big skinhead men with Bull terriers could put his much thought into something ey! Lol
Frank: I knew I had it in me, but didn’t know that from you and Marco ;)LOL
Frank: Gameness is not a act of behavior, and there would be not a dogman in the World considdering it to be that. Gameness is part of the character of the dog, and you only know that they have it on the moment they need it. It is not something you can activate, its just there.
Marco: there was a start where gameness was not as far developped and training methods for this behaviour not yet discovered.
Frank: There is NO training method for gameness. There is a training method to learn and train the fightingdog to be a better pitdog(also claimed by some not to be true), but gameness is there or it isn’t. Starting the gamedog at a young age is not making him game, its just the way to start the dog slowly, and don’t destroy him in the process of learning.
It’s the same as with kids who have a talent for something, if parents expect too much from them at the start, the will to carry on can dissapear because of the pressure. Same with the gamedog, some can start to dislike it(although there are dogs who carry on no matter how young), although the gameness is there we will not see it anymore in this activity. But still the talent/gameness is there, if it’s not there we can not bring it into them.
Marco: I think you made a small mistake to talk about the end of the process emidiatly the ultimate Game dog. It took generation after generation to gain it and it was all done by real staffords.
Frank: You are right, it took generations of hard culling to get the endproduct, the Pitdog. And even after these generations it takes a tough breeder to test the litters that he breeds and select the game ones, as not all will be that. If not tested properly the chance of breeding with curs increases. And the change of breeding litters with less and less game pups is also growing. Let alone 10 to 20 generations not tested!!!!
Marco: Maybe just as game as the ones we have today be they bred for conformation or for sports is besides the point as the beginning was not bred for the purpose of dogfighting Dogfighting was just one of those canine activity's that claimed it's own evolution of which our generation has seen the end result of that evolution process. And that is your refferation square and that by far does not cover the story.
Frank: Marco it does not matter against what refferention square we are holding the term game, game as game is meant in our Bull Terrier breeds is just only pointing to one specific Game, and that has everything to do with the box.
And no, more than 90% of our Staffords these days are not game. Yes we all like to think so because of our romantic view on the breed, but we can count on it that its gone. They can have a tenacious character, but that is not game.
Marco: On the other hand it seems that you only need gameness for the gamedog but Gameness in for instance dog fighting is a tool to rely on in the pit and by that meaning made important. but from my point of view you need a huge package of fighting ability's (which rely on physics) and enough gameness to do the job and from the gambling part to rely on it will do the job even when it means death because it gave a last chance to win the match when the other dog didn't stay with his opponent. But when the gamest dog was killed by the best fighter it still was the dog that lost. so in the stituation of the gamedog be they stafford or pitbull it is not gameness that was the most important but the whole package the gameness and the physics was the goal.
Frank: Yes they need also good fighting skills. But when the other dog is game too it plays a bigger part. Because there are instances where Bandogs, Rottweilers etc where matched against much smaller Pits with weights that where almost half, but still they won. They won because these other breeds failed to carry on fighting when they got in grave danger where the much more hurt Pitbull carried on no matter what.
And again yes, fighting abillity is also important, but gameness first, as that is the most difficult part to capture and keep.
Marco: And gameness is a type of behaviour that developpes partly in genes and partly by enviromentand that depents on skills to survive.
Frank: The enviroment only plays a part in the fact that it will give a chance to show it or not. Again, it’s there or it isn’t.
Marco: When a dog wins a batlle he did not prove gameness he had proved to be a winner.
Frank: depends on the fight and the opponent. But in many cases your right.
Marco: the most succesfull dogmen in the history of fighting dogs had the skills to developp the right mix of enviroment fysics and gameness. So from my point of view a game dog is made.
Frank: In my(and I think most gamedogman will agree) opinion, they where good in testing their dogs to the limit, and selecting the game ones. In this process they also could see the most talented fighters. Some had a better eye for these aspects then others, and also in selecting the broodstock there where bigger and lesser Gods.
Neill: We will never see it again but that does not mean our dogs do not have the foundations to be game, with selection and the means for it to be achieved again it could be.
Frank: Yes also the Wolf has the foundation somewhere, it only took us a few thousand years of selection. So be my guest Gone is gone, and it will take more than a lifetime to get back to acceptable levels for the dogfighter.
Neill: Do we really require it? in my opinion no, we have amongst us descendents of the most couragous animals in the world, and should honour there descendents by breeding highly confident, drivey and correctly constructed animals with solid temperment. Todays dogs are more than sufficient at what we ask of them
Frank: Looking it from your point of view like this you are right. But was the question or we needed it? As this was the question we could have ended this already pages before
Neill: Concentrating on the head of the EBT is detrimental when breeding, concentrating on on single element of construction rather than the whole package in any animal is wrong, so maybe its a good thing the Game gene has gone ?
Frank: Depends what you value in your dogs I think, and what you need.
Neill: Who'd of thought big skinhead men with Bull terriers could put his much thought into something ey! Lol
Frank: I knew I had it in me, but didn’t know that from you and Marco ;)LOL