Researching Conformation and Anatomy

[anubis]

Is a dog going to perform in the field better with the right conformation for the job yes.
Saying that we all no the correct conformation is only one of the tools in the box....no good sitting pretty as they say.
So i agree showing does have its uses as long as showing is only part of the test...then you move on and test the dog in the field.
I do believe though that good conformation comes naturaly to a good working dog because thats the way nature intended it to be to carry out its task at hand.....only the best put together dogs are going to work another day.Faulty dogs will crumble in the field.

Great debate

[quinlent]

Feb 11, 2010 8:37:22 GMT @hiphoplyricalrobot said:

Is it possible to judge a dog or breed dogs without sound understanding of construction or movement. Ive heard some say that they have never been educated or educated themselves on conformational issues, but know a good dog when they see one. Can this be the case [/font]

This is judging from personal reference framework.

So yes this can be the case based upon reckognition of similarity compared to dogs known by this person before. (if this really is a good one is still a doubt) but for his / her experience there is a certainty. The trap for these people is that they can fault better dogs as they have not seen them before or have studied to understand what they are seeing.

I personally dont beleive so and think a good knowledge of anatomy and the diffrent conformational types required for diffrent work is a must if the best are to be breed and placed as winners at our shows.

your and others their believes as well as mine are based upon our personal reference square. The point that matters is that we should respect that all these reference squares are overlapping in a certain degree eachother but it is rare to see them fit precisely. In fact that is what makes this such an interesting hobby.

and what is the value of good without its opposit

Love to hear your opinions, cheers, Neil

this is a great debate touching the heart of the matter let us keep it as oblective as possible, Cheers pal

Marco

[ragingstormkennels]

Feb 13, 2010 16:19:12 GMT ragingstormkennels said:

Feb 13, 2010 15:36:57 GMT cadgi said:

yep conformation will improve a dog with fire and heart, but a dog with fire and heart and conformation that doesn't fall into a written standard doesn't meen it's a bad one. but a dog with good conformation and no fire and heart is just an eating,sleeping, shitting ornament nothing more. as soon as you start judgeing an animal for the way it look's, the look's become priority, look's should be a bonus.

Agree with you there Lyndon, like Owen said, a dog ideally needs a good balance of everything to be a good dog! But as said above, you are judging on looks at shows, so a dog built correctly will be more desirable than that of one that has faults.

Sorry, just to clarify my post, when I say Judges are judging a dog on looks, I mean they can only physically see the dogs conformation.....hence judging on the look of its conformation. I dont mean superficial features like ears, coat, tail etc.

[bullmatt]

reading all these posts has made me realize how pointless the conformation shows really are(dont think rosette hunting is for me),so i am not going to show any of my dogs(will still do the athletic days ), in my opinion they are a waste of money,good luck in the show ring this year everyone,

[paddy]

Feb 14, 2010 22:27:15 GMT @hiphoplyricalrobot said:

understand the mechanics behind a real pit/bull dog. The winners were not just the the ones who wanted it most, they were the ones with that quality plus the mechanics to do the job.

But in reality it dont allways work that way...dogs are not machines they are individuals...an example being CH Scotsman's Max probably one of the finest pit dogs to walk these isles certainly best in his day...did he have perfect conformation?...he went his whole pit career with a smashed up back leg...and what about undershot jaws?...i know for a fact that some judges at these athletic shows will disregard an otherwise perfect spcimen for being slightly undershot...yet some of the best pit dogs in history where undershot and many of the best working terriers...but going back to the original question...i was under the impression judges where chosen/asked mainly because many regarded them to have an 'eye' for a good dog this 'eye' or preferance had been proven over many years of consitanly producing good dogs or achiving sucess with the dogs they handled...much of the judging at these type of shows comes down to the personal preferance of the judge...books and theory are all well and good but what really matters is experience and experience is all about failure as well as success...you cant learn that from a book...allways thought the conformation part of these shows was just a bit of fun???anyway good debate

[anubis]

I think Paddy just hit it on the head there...shows are just a bit of fun....thats how i look at them.

[dog]

I don't think anyone within our circles would claim to have the best dog around because they've one lots of shows...maybe show people would.

[cadgi]

This goes out to Neil and any bodyelse i may of offended, my apologies all.
I will say this and leave it at that, bearing in mind this is just my opinion. History has taught us that without a doubt, even if the intention's were good to begin with the showing and judgeing of any animal based on a look/build/conformation, what ever you call it is the ruination of said animal.
We breed dog's no longer able to carry out their function's in life, this has now spread out into our gamefair's as well as show dog's. We breed horses witch are now getting faster for the track but they were never intended to (leading leg's braking from the strain and stresses put on them, yet we still carry on). Pidgeon's and finches bred with too much feather they no longer fly (yep flight less bird's, for f*^k sake). Rabbit's so heavy they can no longer behave like a rabbit, and now we are even doing it to our own kind, young children paraded on the stage dressed up in make up and looking like adult's before they've had time to be children, and now to top it off singing compertition's were the winner's are judge on their look/image rather than their voices, and we call ourself the intelligent species.
If you want to study conformation sit and watch the conformation in action when your dog is weight pulling, lure racing and so forth, watch it functioning and moving and then you'll get the understanding of it, it can not be understood if it's not moving.
A written standard does not improve, it restrict's.
A.T.B.........

[hiphoplyricalrobot]

You didnt offend me Lyndon, and standards is not what im talking about. At the race horse sales horses are bidded on in a small ring and evaluated on there structure. Limb angles, length of back, pastern angles and length, rib shape, these things predispose animals to be better at diffrent things. High hocks generally indicate good speed, low hocks endurance etc, i dont need to tell you this Lyndon as i know you do and have studied these things. When accessing horses conformation and dogs you do so statically and dynamically. I agree things have been ruined by poor interpretation of how things work but i believe its our job to show them how to do it properly.

For me its not a bit of fun but an important lesson about how things work, i like to access both statically and dynamically.

[cadgi]

But neil you asked can you judge conformation. as soon as you look or express an opinion on anything your going to a standard, this standard even if it's not a written one is still a standard or your ideal of what you think is wright or wrong, we haven't bred the perfect dog yet so how do any of us know who's wright it's just opinion's and ideal's not fact.(also if we did breed the perfect dog how would we know, no one's ever seen it. you might think you have but that's just your / individual's ideal).
the horses being bidded on and looked over in the ring, same again, just individual ideal's or joint ideal's, not fact, this is why they then take the horses and put them to task, to see if their ideal's according to their standard's work and function.
The perfect animal is like the holy grail, it's out there some were, but where. By standardising animal's and as Marco say's putting them into a box be it individually or jointly your not allowing breeder's to search for it, your assuming it's all ready found. It stop's breeder's searching, or restrict's us.
Hope this make's some sort of sence.........

[hiphoplyricalrobot]

makes perfect sense lyndon, but i would also say this, i have mentioned that i shoe horses, i shoe them to correct conformational defects. In order to do this you need a set of ideal conformational guide lines, the ideal animal is not out there but we must have an understanding of the type of mechanics the ideal animal would have in order to work towards the ideal. To judge or breed, these mechanics and the ideal conformation for the breeds given task should be understood by the person performing the judging or breeding. My problem far to many approach breeding or judging without reasearching f**k all. Angles of pelvis, limb lengths, etc, etc are all documented from 'working stock' and other wild life in certain literature. Reading as you say means nothing, understanding it is the key but reading goes along way to aiding that understanding.

I know we have various defrent ideals on conformation, thats why we came to you for Sonny not a kc breeder as most kc breeders misunderstand the point, I did however get lily from a KC breeder and she leaves no question in my mind she is made of good stock. I think a specific conformational type is vitally important for the true champs of their breed. Deciding which type is best can only be achieved by studying them statically and at work

Speak soon mate. Have a gooden

[quinlent]

i think due to the fact that there are different goals within the matter has created a situation that to many people point in a different direction and willing to speak out there ideas. but when everyone points at a different direction no one is having a debate face to face. which means no one really listened towards another story, ideas and goals.

I happen to agree with Neil and with Lyndon when i listen towards there views but still have my own that is a bit different on its own, as it happened to be mine. and it is based upon my experience.

Now when you are thought from day one you bought a BT - SBT whatever that showing is the way and you actually start doing it you are arriving at a scene that agrees with that and so it turns into believe. the problem with believing is that everyone that does believe also happen to think they are wright.

a lot of people in the athletic scene happens to believe that Showdogs are fat shortlegged pigs that cannot breath.
but this is a very rescent show champion

and he got his title with speed. I know that when this dog entered a sporting scene he'd open many eyes. hes fast he's spiritted but his owners have a slightly different believe towards what to do with their dog. I hope to find this dog on a sporting event one day!

it is the same the otherway arround a lot of showfolk believe that the athletic dogs hardly get any food that they are skinny underweight poor animals in the hands of people with a brutal mentality towards animals.

so letting go of the standards in our thinking and have an open honest view and debate on the subject in form and function who knows we might close a gap.

go biking me dogs

Cheers

[hiphoplyricalrobot]

cheers marco for the reply