|
|
Post by quinlent on Jan 4, 2010 20:04:21 GMT
Might be it is not written down but in those days certain and different types of bulldogs where used in a lot of breeding programms of other breeds and i can imagine the english white suffer certain ilnesses related to the recessive pool of the si gene causing extreme piebalds as are dogos and are white bull terriers. Bringing back colour in be it from bulldogs or not but at least that is the story. my refference towards cattle was based on normal cattle and not those inbred to myostatin disorder as those blues in the town of yer brother the colour blue has no effect on this disorder. Back to basics as I loose you somewhere. Yes we can assume the English White Terrier in the EBT, and as there is EBT in the Dogo we can assume also this breed beein into the make up of the Dogo. But again, where do you get the idea that the Stafford is also a product of crossing the English White Terrier with the Bulldog? I never found this proof anywhere, except that a lot speak about terriers from different types, and the knowing that certain showbreeders in the early 1900's crossed EBT''s into the Stafford to get there wanted " Substance" for showing!? Below was your quote: In my believes the Stafford was created out of the English White terrier and the Bulldogyes i think that is the case. As from my point of view the Stafford and the Bull terrier are the same dogs. But devellopped differently. The Bull terrier changed a bull terrier from 1915  and possibly before  the way the colour was white genetically there had problems to be developped. i think that they used the results of original crossings not infected with the white obsession where used back as a safe cross. The working class of that time started to sell there dogs as coloured bull terriers finally a group wanted to remain there original type and encouraged by a strong Bull Terrier Lobby put in the name original Bull Terrier. When i read the standard of the stafford to me it is hard to deny that it is written opositional towards the developpement of the EBT at that time till present. specifically in the head session. I think all earlier dogs where an old type of Bulldog and i think that the types of bulldogs used gave us a huge variety in sizes and types. the fact that Black and tan is not wanted shows the elimination of all other possible terrier crosses that where dominant in that area mainly fox terriers manchester early type of jack russells which all cary the black and tan gene. The Stafford to me is the original Bull Terrier the type that was vissible when old type Bulldogs where crossed with English White terriers. it was in 1917 that the first dog appeared that had no stop at all. the differences in the coloured version, the original Bull terrier type in history and today is towards early bull terrier developpement just the stop   |
|
|
|
Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jan 4, 2010 20:17:08 GMT
Cheers for these last few cross posts staefan and Frank, really enjoyed them.
|
|
|
|
Post by quinlent on Jan 4, 2010 20:30:26 GMT
an interesting article about the english white molosserdogs.com/content3219.htmlit proves my theorie in a way 1 there where english whites with spots pointing in the direction of an active si gene A small pool on it's own the most possible outcross to maintain the ability's of the english white was the old time bulldogs much carried the si gene but with more colour. to me that is the only explanation that makes realy any sense about mixing the most game terrier of the time to the most game molosser the old bulldog. The mixes proved stronger and the white terrier got extinct. James Hinks had some of these white terriers and i think that is where the deaf problems in Bull terriers come from as in the developement the same obsessions occur. one thing Hinks took down his grave did he use the english whites to pimp up his bulldogs or did he use the bulldogs to maintain the old english white and there Staffordshire Bull terrier characteristics? interesting it is! Marco |
|
|
|
Post by frank on Jan 4, 2010 21:21:10 GMT
Back to basics as I loose you somewhere. Yes we can assume the English White Terrier in the EBT, and as there is EBT in the Dogo we can assume also this breed beein into the make up of the Dogo. But again, where do you get the idea that the Stafford is also a product of crossing the English White Terrier with the Bulldog? I never found this proof anywhere, except that a lot speak about terriers from different types, and the knowing that certain showbreeders in the early 1900's crossed EBT''s into the Stafford to get there wanted " Substance" for showing!? Below was your quote: In my believes the Stafford was created out of the English White terrier and the Bulldogyes i think that is the case. As from my point of view the Stafford and the Bull terrier are the same dogs. But devellopped differently. The Bull terrier changed a bull terrier from 1915 and possibly before the way the colour was white genetically there had problems to be developped. i think that they used the results of original crossings not infected with the white obsession where used back as a safe cross. The working class of that time started to sell there dogs as coloured bull terriers finally a group wanted to remain there original type and encouraged by a strong Bull Terrier Lobby put in the name original Bull Terrier. When i read the standard of the stafford to me it is hard to deny that it is written opositional towards the developpement of the EBT at that time till present. specifically in the head session. I think all earlier dogs where an old type of Bulldog and i think that the types of bulldogs used gave us a huge variety in sizes and types. the fact that Black and tan is not wanted shows the elimination of all other possible terrier crosses that where dominant in that area mainly fox terriers manchester early type of jack russells which all cary the black and tan gene. The Stafford to me is the original Bull Terrier the type that was vissible when old type Bulldogs where crossed with English White terriers. it was in 1917 that the first dog appeared that had no stop at all. the differences in the coloured version, the original Bull terrier type in history and today is towards early bull terrier developpement just the stop I still can not agree with you. Yes, I see a EBT and a white SBT in those pictures, but nowhere I ever said that there was no English White Terrier in the Stafford, even stronger, some lines carried because of Major Count van Hollander and Jim Walls(something like that his name slips all the time) a lot of EBT blood in them because the crossed them as being the same breed. They had the same view as you and saw the EBT and SBT as one breed, only with a different colour. That the whole group of oldtimers did not agree did not bother them and still they mixed. Mike Homan wrote a hole piece about this, but I forgot where. In all the years I follow the history of our breed I have seen loads of pics, plates, paintings etc etc from Bull and Terrier crosses, but only a very small percentage was white. The general believe was also that not 1 but several terrier breeds where used. This strengthened also my fictious story I wrote on that BullBreedsOnline forum. |
|
|
|
Post by frank on Jan 4, 2010 21:34:01 GMT
an interesting article about the english white molosserdogs.com/content3219.htmlit proves my theorie in a way 1 there where english whites with spots pointing in the direction of an active si gene A small pool on it's own the most possible outcross to maintain the ability's of the english white was the old time bulldogs much carried the si gene but with more colour. to me that is the only explanation that makes realy any sense about mixing the most game terrier of the time to the most game molosser the old bulldog. The mixes proved stronger and the white terrier got extinct. James Hinks had some of these white terriers and i think that is where the deaf problems in Bull terriers come from as in the developement the same obsessions occur. one thing Hinks took down his grave did he use the english whites to pimp up his bulldogs or did he use the bulldogs to maintain the old english white and there Staffordshire Bull terrier characteristics? interesting it is! Marco Nice written piece, but do not buy it. This is impossible the way it happened. The fightingdogs where widespread trough the Brittish Isles, even every part of the country had their own type of Bulldog, and own type of Bull and Terrier. And even amongst them we saw differences. The colour white was not a very domminant one, black and tan is a colour we can see on a lot of those drawings of the first Bull and Terrier crosses. Also long haired ones. This was NOT a designer dog, the Bull and Terrier cross was just another mutt that got lifted out of the gutter because of its acomplishments. And my guess is that even the oldtimers in those days who bred their pure Bulldogs did not even recognise those breedings at first as being superior. |
|
|
|
Post by mbb on Jan 4, 2010 22:32:28 GMT
an interesting topic , not so long ago the concerns were that Stafford's were becoming to short and stocky and to bulldog like and moving away from leggy more terrier like dogs .
i imagine there must have been quite a variety of types from the early crosses, and i thought they were aiming to produce superior pit fighting dogs .a dog with the strength , courage and hold of a bulldog and the speed dexterity of the terrier and drive and gameness from both aiming for a higher % on the terrier side .so as to make a move away from the heavy and expensive sports such as bear bating to pitting the smaller more agile terrier cross bull dogs against each other. then breeding the more successful ones i cant imagine looks came in to it just success in the ring i didn't think standards came in till much later and i thought the dogs to be about the 18" mark ranging from 30 -45 lbs ratting and such activities was something some of the quicker lighter dogs proved good at I also thought the taller dogs would have the advantage in the pit not having to fight upwards and having that extra leverage
hope you can make sense of this
|
|
|
|
Post by quinlent on Jan 4, 2010 22:46:36 GMT
The point is that all that is of no meaning to the modern Staffordshire bull terrier from 1935 and on
as those dogs mainly came out of the breeding of one man.
and the concentration of his dogs that beside
the Staffordshire Bull terrier is not the dogs known as the bull and terrier even though a lot of people try to make other people believe that. if that was the truth our breeding base would have been much larger then it actualy became.
I think Joe Mallen was that clever working class that selled his stock as coloured bull terriers but he had seen a bigger market in a new breed kennelclub history tells he has proven to be right. The ones that formed the first club where all people out of his circle.
I think he took the B&T story and sold it with his coloured bull terriers and that became today's SBT
when i see him walking the street in that movie Anton posted i see a lot similarity with and the english white terrier and the bullterrier.
so what i say is i think your story is one that is right i think some of these dogs where used i also know that the mainlines exist today go back to Mallen's dogs as the others didn't prove themselves in a show scene. and that is where the pounds where made not in the dog pit.
and it is a hard bite but that is as far as i can see concerning today's Stafford the story. all people invalved in the make up of the SBT are not the working class poor man known as the white slaves of england that had bulldog terrier crosses.
It is a completely different Story talking Pit bulls that is where your story is right in it's place and i would not dare to argue.
But the original Am staffs breed standard is a copy of the original english bull terrier breedstandard
it is great to share views again with you
Cheers mate
|
|
|
|
Post by frank on Jan 4, 2010 23:22:51 GMT
hope you can make sense of this The question I get from your written piece is, sense of what? What Don't you understand? The 18 inch is a nice thought, but there was much more variety in height than that. Nice is also to see the pics of the early westall dogs, specially Judy. If we look ate her, I guess she could be not much heavier than about 25 to 28 lbs? Small rangy bitch with a lot of leg lenght. Also the weights you mentioned where no given situation. It all depended on in what competition you fought your dogs. Same is still existing, the bigger dogs ruld for a while in the pits, but in some parts of the world the pits are getting smaller again, an the weight go for the main part way under the 20 kg tops. But your right, no standard nor height or whatsoever was the goal for using Terrier in the Bulldog, as the Bulldog already had small specimens in their ranks. |
|
|
|
Post by quinlent on Jan 4, 2010 23:24:32 GMT
an interesting topic , not so long ago the concerns were that Stafford's were becoming to short and stocky and to bulldog like and moving away from leggy more terrier like dogs . i imagine there must have been quite a variety of types from the early crosses, and i thought they were aiming to produce superior pit fighting dogs .a dog with the strength , courage and hold of a bulldog and the speed dexterity of the terrier and drive and gameness from both aiming for a higher % on the terrier side .so as to make a move away from the heavy and expensive sports such as bear bating to pitting the smaller more agile terrier cross bull dogs against each other. then breeding the more successful ones i cant imagine looks came in to it just success in the ring i didn't think standards came in till much later and i thought the dogs to be about the 18" mark ranging from 30 -45 lbs ratting and such activities was something some of the quicker lighter dogs proved good at I also thought the taller dogs would have the advantage in the pit not having to fight upwards and having that extra leverage hope you can make sense of this hey mate that is not what they where aiming for that is what they where selling. The breed was reckognised before they told the kennel club what the breed had to look like at the time of kennelclub reckognition there was no breedstandard the breed standard and the story still had to be written at the time of kennelclub recognition. Why would you aim for a superior pit fighting dog when you are bringing your dogs to battle in a showring. Cheers mate |
|
|
|
Post by frank on Jan 4, 2010 23:28:49 GMT
The point is that all that is of no meaning to the modern Staffordshire bull terrier from 1935 and on as those dogs mainly came out of the breeding of one man. and the concentration of his dogs that beside the Staffordshire Bull terrier is not the dogs known as the bull and terrier even though a lot of people try to make other people believe that. if that was the truth our breeding base would have been much larger then it actualy became. I think Joe Mallen was that clever working class that selled his stock as coloured bull terriers but he had seen a bigger market in a new breed kennelclub history tells he has proven to be right. The ones that formed the first club where all people out of his circle. I think he took the B&T story and sold it with his coloured bull terriers and that became today's SBT when i see him walking the street in that movie Anton posted i see a lot similarity with and the english white terrier and the bullterrier. so what i say is i think your story is one that is right i think some of these dogs where used i also know that the mainlines exist today go back to Mallen's dogs as the others didn't prove themselves in a show scene. and that is where the pounds where made not in the dog pit. and it is a hard bite but that is as far as i can see concerning today's Stafford the story. all people invalved in the make up of the SBT are not the working class poor man known as the white slaves of england that had bulldog terrier crosses. It is a completely different Story talking Pit bulls that is where your story is right in it's place and i would not dare to argue. But the original Am staffs breed standard is a copy of the original english bull terrier breedstandard it is great to share views again with you Cheers mate Lol, you don't play fair, you say I am right but I don't because we talk about another thing now? Fuck me, nobody told me that. Ok, it's 0:27 now here, so come back at it tomorrow  |
|
|
|
Post by frank on Jan 4, 2010 23:39:14 GMT
Hate it when things stay in my head while I try to sleep, so here the way the first standard for the Staffordshire Terrier came to live:
During the "Great Depression of the 1930's" the American Kennel Club added American Pit Bull Terriers to their registry under the name of Staffordshire Terriers. With this new name for the breed, they needed a standard. After visiting a few kennels, a committee headed by Wilfred T. Brandon chose Colby's Primo as a standard for the breed.
From the site of Colby
So the EBT standard did not come up.
|
|
|
|
Post by quinlent on Jan 5, 2010 6:31:21 GMT
a quote:
In the early 1930’s a group of fanciers petitioned the American Kennel Club to accept their dogs into the registry. These dogs already registered with the United Kennel Club, but their owners had no interest in dog fighting. They wanted to promote their breed as family dogs and show dogs. They formed a national breed club and wrote a standard for the breed. Much agonizing was done over the proper name for the breed, and the American Kennel Club was not inclined to register them with the same name as the United Kennel Club did. Finally they were accepted with the name of Staffordshire Terrier in 1936. This was just a year after the English bull-and-terriers under the same name of the Staffordshire Bull Terriers were recognized with the Kennel Club of England. The standards of both the English and American breeds were written similarly, and even contained some identical phrases. The authors of both kept in touch with each other, working toward their common goad of acceptance by their kennel clubs. At that time , the dogs described were more similar in size and structure than the breeds appear today.
In the early 1970’s the name of the Staffordshire terrier was changed to American Staffordshire terrier with the American Kennel Club recognized the Staffordshire Bull Terrier breed.
(source the Staffordshire terrier club of America)
|
|
|
|
Post by frank on Jan 5, 2010 7:59:28 GMT
a quote: The standards of both the English and American breeds were written similarly, and even contained some identical phrases. The authors of both kept in touch with each other, working toward their common goal of acceptance by their (source the Staffordshire terrier club of America) I read something different then you I guess. I see that it was written in the same manner, and that is different then that the standard was almost the same. That the dogs had more simmilarity in that time then is the case now does not surprise me at all, as the EBT and the Amstaff had a more fightingdog built then they have now. The show counterparts of these breeds almost do not look the way anymore how they where meant historicly. |
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Jan 5, 2010 9:17:09 GMT
LOL, still not the one I meant, but this looks valid in this topic. This one?: Think that dogfighting always existed. People like a winner. So when we where a thousand years back and you had a male dog and i had one and they started fighting the winner was looked upon different. it was just dominancy then, but it was a winner a ALFA, and the boy in the next village that you did meet at your walk on the Moor also had a male with him, and accidentally they started fighting, and.....your dog was again the ALFA. So later a person from that boy's village came to you with a bitch to be mated to your great ALFA dog................ And that went on and on and on................ Thats how I think it must have happened. View full topic |
|
|
|
Post by frank on Jan 5, 2010 17:29:07 GMT
LOL, still not the one I meant, but this looks valid in this topic. This one?: Think that dogfighting always existed. People like a winner. So when we where a thousand years back and you had a male dog and i had one and they started fighting the winner was looked upon different. it was just dominancy then, but it was a winner a ALFA, and the boy in the next village that you did meet at your walk on the Moor also had a male with him, and accidentally they started fighting, and.....your dog was again the ALFA. So later a person from that boy's village came to you with a bitch to be mated to your great ALFA dog................ And that went on and on and on................ Thats how I think it must have happened. View full topicLOL, no, but this could in my eyes have been the selecting method that created the fightingdogs. Plain and............ simple. In these modern times we almost always think much to difficult. |
|
|
|
Post by quinlent on Jan 5, 2010 19:28:57 GMT
a quote: The standards of both the English and American breeds were written similarly, and even contained some identical phrases. The authors of both kept in touch with each other, working toward their common goal of acceptance by their (source the Staffordshire terrier club of America) I read something different then you I guess. I see that it was written in the same manner, and that is different then that the standard was almost the same. That the dogs had more simmilarity in that time then is the case now does not surprise me at all, as the EBT and the Amstaff had a more fightingdog built then they have now. The show counterparts of these breeds almost do not look the way anymore how they where meant historicly. Definition similar adjective /ˈsɪm.ɪ.lər//-ə.lɚ/ adj looking or being almost, but not exactly, the same My father and I have similar views on politics. I bought some new shoes which are very similar to a pair I had before. Paul is very similar in appearance to his brother. the differences point into more similarity with the at that time modern EBT than the developpement of the by that time registered Staffordshire Bull terrier of which they in fact would have preffered the name ORIGINAL BULL TERRIER!! It would not surprise me that the Yanks @ first have put the name American Bull Terrier forward. but i am not sure i'll have to look that up. |
|
|
|
Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jan 5, 2010 20:12:08 GMT
Maybe Frank, but things are not done in a more complicated manner nowdays rather visa versa. I would like to think a little more enginering went into the creation of one of the most proficient fighters of any creature, the Bull and Terrier.
The arcitecture of England, the British Empire, millions of life changing creations of the 1700'-1800's are part of our pround British heritage, Proving the quality of mind of our forefathers. To assume the British race horse, Greyhound, fighting dog, Gun dog etc were not so much biomechanical enginering but more likley a succesfull mistake doesnt wash with me.
There were no televisions, videos,x boxes. Men thought in greater detail and produced greater feats of enginering which include the Bull and Terrier of various types for various tasks.
Someone once said on this forum 'Were not breeding race horses here'. I believe the effort required to produce such creatures as the Bull and Terrier required planning on the same level as the thoroughbred horse.
|
|
|
|
Post by frank on Jan 5, 2010 20:55:08 GMT
Maybe Frank, but things are not done in a more complicated manner nowdays rather visa versa. I would like to think a little more enginering went into the creation of one of the most proficient fighters of any creature, the Bull and Terrier. The arcitecture of England, the British Empire, millions of life changing creations of the 1700'-1800's are part of our pround British heritage, Proving the quality of mind of our forefathers. To assume the British race horse, Greyhound, fighting dog, Gun dog etc were not so much biomechanical enginering but more likley a succesfull mistake doesnt wash with me. There were no televisions, videos,x boxes. Men thought in greater detail and produced greater feats of enginering which include the Bull and Terrier of various types for various tasks. Someone once said on this forum 'Were not breeding race horses here'. I believe the effort required to produce such creatures as the Bull and Terrier required planning on the same level as the thoroughbred horse. Don't start about the quallity of mind at your part of the World, only look in the generall section of this board in a certain topic ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Just kidding. No I do not say that we do it now more difficult or whatsoever. But if you walk the walk for a long time with the people who just work their dogs, is it hunting, fighting, retrieving or whatsoever, who are only in it for the job, we can see one thing: They prefer one type of dog maybe, but on the end they do not give a shit as long as it works. And when they think a cross may add something to there genepool, they just add it and see what comes from it. And my believe is that this is also the case with the Bull & Terrier cross. Maybe somebody had the right idea for this cross and did the first one, but the rest just followed blind with a lot of errors. Yes, I like the romantic views, but we are just fooling ourselfs I am affraid. It's just simple. It;s no rocket science, they had one goal for the fightingdog WIN. |
|
|
|
Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jan 5, 2010 21:35:41 GMT
Then some of our views must differ my friend.
|
|
|
|
Post by frank on Jan 6, 2010 6:49:30 GMT
Then some of our views must differ my friend. I am glad they do friend, otherwise we would not need this section on the board  But if I look around me I see loads of crosses in workingdogs, and those dogs perform sometimes even better then the actual breeds who are bred for generations for that particular job. But......saying that mostly it is bred back in line again after a cross like that. If they did it the same in the past, then we could argue or the fightingdog isn't the biggest percentage still Bulldog. And if you argue that one cross in a certain amount of generations does not matter that much to a breed, then we could say the Yanks are right, and the Pitbull is the pure Bulldog....... As you see we can go in all directions with our thinking, only thing is that we will never be sure. |
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Jan 6, 2010 7:02:37 GMT
I read something different then you I guess. I see that it was written in the same manner, and that is different then that the standard was almost the same. That the dogs had more simmilarity in that time then is the case now does not surprise me at all, as the EBT and the Amstaff had a more fightingdog built then they have now. The show counterparts of these breeds almost do not look the way anymore how they where meant historicly. Definition similar adjective /ˈsɪm.ɪ.lər//-ə.lɚ/ adj looking or being almost, but not exactly, the same My father and I have similar views on politics. I bought some new shoes which are very similar to a pair I had before. Paul is very similar in appearance to his brother. the differences point into more similarity with the at that time modern EBT than the developpement of the by that time registered Staffordshire Bull terrier of which they in fact would have preffered the name ORIGINAL BULL TERRIER!! It would not surprise me that the Yanks @ first have put the name American Bull Terrier forward. but i am not sure i'll have to look that up. You can find it here: www.bulldoginformation.com/bull-and-terrier-breeds.html |
|
|
|
Post by stefan on Jan 6, 2010 8:02:41 GMT
This one?: Think that dogfighting always existed. People like a winner. So when we where a thousand years back and you had a male dog and i had one and they started fighting the winner was looked upon different. it was just dominancy then, but it was a winner a ALFA, and the boy in the next village that you did meet at your walk on the Moor also had a male with him, and accidentally they started fighting, and.....your dog was again the ALFA. So later a person from that boy's village came to you with a bitch to be mated to your great ALFA dog................ And that went on and on and on................ Thats how I think it must have happened. View full topicLOL, no, but this could in my eyes have been the selecting method that created the fightingdogs. Plain and............ simple. In these modern times we almost always think much to difficult. I give up. Click on the following link to search through your own posts: forum.bullbreedsonline.com/search/?c=2&mid=7971 |
|
|
|
Post by ianhurley on Feb 7, 2010 16:35:24 GMT
at one time these dogs were known as "half and half's". half bulldog, half terrier. half strength, half activity. half attack, half defense. half tenacity and half ferocity. this half tenacity and half ferocity gave them a most devastating bite. the half attack and defense gave the new breed not just the ability to attack as the old bulldog would have but also the ability to defend itself by holding out its opponent and making him miss and when ready would go on the attack and punish its adversary by gripping, shaking and worrying the other dog (bull n terrier style).
the bulldogs style of attack is to rush in (dam the torpedoes, full speed ahead). the terriers style was to dart in and out (worrying its quarry). so this new breed of bull n terrier now had the ability to both attack and defend itself.
watching two bulldogs fight with the silence of the grave would be like watching paint dry as they grip and try to pull lumps out of each other. adding terrier blood made them faster and thereby more entertaining to watch. it is this blending of the two types which layed birth to the greatest fighting dog of all.
|
|
|
|
Post by poacher on Dec 26, 2010 6:49:54 GMT
well if you can prise it from him, about 89 I gave Ed a video of us killing 2080 rats in 2 days, the biggest killer there was a 52lb bitch 18"tts.
can I say imo standards for type are held in to high esteem, dog fighters developed the dog from practising their art, they didnt hold a show and say that one is put together better than this one, it was function that produced the type not a dog show.
Within a breed different strains vary massively, so WHO decides what right?
About 13yrs ago I made a mockery of yr tests, I took a patterdale toa Reid show I was judging he had never weight pulled before and won, he weighed 14lbs and pulled 750 some of you have it on video, he proved that day he had a bit more heart, he was later put to sleep for not having quite enough heart after he started coming of his foxes, his first 26 were dig to with style but he became an in out dog.Winning shows meant nothing in the end with him, we found out in the end that whilst he looked fit for function, he didnt have the mettle for function
|
|
|
|
Post by terrierboy on Dec 26, 2010 20:37:33 GMT
the excuse of many is that fights are ilegal nowadays. my answer's why get into a breed known to be a gladiator. cant cope with the fact, get a lapdog.
why tame a lion? get a pony or a kittie, problem solved.
is nice to have my dogs doing reps on A-frame, in a good nick and all, but if they dont show their true colors in the field, they dont stay, let alone breeding them
|
|
|
|
Post by frank on Dec 27, 2010 1:04:05 GMT
Many do not want that killer instinct in their dogs anymore. They say it does not fit in our modern society, instead of that they just should look pretty and behave like a Labrador............... and another great breed bites the dust..............
|
|
