Categories for competition

[dog]

As the subject came up in the form and function thread and people obviously want to discuss it I've started a thread here to try and keep things tidy and on topic.

Do you think the current system of categorising dogs for competition is fair and if not what else would you suggest?

[ianhurley]

all i would say is, i've seen some grand little 15in- 30lb staffords going over the a-frame but they have not been rewarded for their efforts, simply because they were up against other good staffords who were larger replicas of the same proportions, there's an old saying "a good biggun will always beat a good little'un" they diidnt get rewarded, not because they were not worthy but because of how the rules are written!

[ianhurley]

for catergories i would like if the classes could be made up to 16in up to 18in up to 21 and up to 25max. giving a more equall chance for all. as for prizes it wouldn't bother me if there were fewer or cheaper ones, like wise it wouldn't bother me if the prizes remained and entrance fees went up as the biggest pay out will always be fuel. although i haven't been to many sacs days of late, i do hope to attend a few in the future.

[Jessica]

It all relative you are never going to keep everyone happy but i do think certain events like the a frame could do with some thought as to size of the dog competing.

The problem is you are always going to get one off like Jasmine for example that will throw a cat amoungst the pigeons, but in general larger dogs do have a big disadvantage on the A frame. Its not so much the weight its the turning ability when the dog hits the ground that is hard on them.
The a frame is not a good event in general for the larger dogs IMO

[ianhurley]

i agree, this activity is best suited to smaller- medium sized breeds.

[dodger]

i have to agree with ian on this one a dog of just over 18"will never keep up with a dog of just under 25" in a frame or lure racing

[quinlent]

Yes it is fair Owen as the small dogs make the same distance in the race the same hight on the A and the same weight to pull when you calculate it towards proportion it is difficult for a good big one to beat a good small one.

for instance a dog weighs 25 kilo pulling 800 kg he pulls 32 X his body weight when we let a 14 kilo dog pull 32 times his body weight he has to pull 448kg and then it is a completely open match. the same with a hundred mtr race calculate the set time X the body height and many a smaller dog will do much better and on much less food!

this is one of the things we have founded out within the DSA we have done a lot of thinking and try outs on calculation and we say when you calculate everything back to personal body height and weight (for pulling and tug of war) it is a completely open match for all sizes.

Marco

[ianhurley]

you could avoid the height issue all together and instead match them for ability. each dog to be bought for a field trial of 1 min round of a-frame to get a p.b. and then each dog put into their rightful division, say 25-30 runs. 31-35runs. 36-40runs. 41-45runs. ect.
For competition days have 3 rounds (better for stamina and drive).
all winners of their division to compare their winning scores for the day for best in show (of course this is more likely to be won by the winner of the top division).
All dogs gaining 90 or more over 3 rounds to be considered good dogs and dogs gaining a score of a 100 or more over 3 rounds to be considered as something special!
dogs can move up divisions by gaining p.b.s.
You could also do a point system over a season (this would give people more of a reason to attend as many days as possible). just an idea.

[quinlent]

Feb 21, 2010 20:51:15 GMT @ianhurley said:

you could avoid the height issue all together and instead match them for ability. each dog to be bought for a field trial of 1 min round of a-frame to get a p.b. and then each dog put into their rightful division, say 25-30 runs. 31-35runs. 36-40runs. 41-45runs. ect.
For competition days have 3 rounds (better for stamina and drive).
all winners of their division to compare their winning scores for the day for best in show (of course this is more likely to be won by the winner of the top division).
All dogs gaining 90 or more over 3 rounds to be considered good dogs and dogs gaining a score of a 100 or more over 3 rounds to be considered as something special!
dogs can move up divisions by gaining p.b.s.
You could also do a point system over a season (this would give people more of a reason to attend as many days as possible). just an idea.

We have that, a competition that runs over a year period of time.
our classifications are set 35 - 40 cm 40 - 45cm 45 - 50 cm

i happen to agree with you that indeed there is a good possibility to scale it by ability but i reckon that this is the meaning of competition so it is a bit confusing for me.

for 2010 i hope to have many of these discussions and to speak a lot with everybody on international events. as when we can developp one system for all then we can have a worldwide competition.

cheers mate - Marco

[ianhurley]

Feb 22, 2010 9:25:17 GMT @quinlent said:

Feb 21, 2010 20:51:15 GMT @ianhurley said:

you could avoid the height issue all together and instead match them for ability. each dog to be bought for a field trial of 1 min round of a-frame to get a p.b. and then each dog put into their rightful division, say 25-30 runs. 31-35runs. 36-40runs. 41-45runs. etc.
For competition days have 3 rounds (better for stamina and drive).
all winners of their division to compare their winning scores for the day for best in show (of course this is more likely to be won by the winner of the top division).
All dogs gaining 90 or more over 3 rounds to be considered good dogs and dogs gaining a score of a 100 or more over 3 rounds to be considered as something special!
dogs can move up divisions by gaining p.b.s.
You could also do a point system over a season (this would give people more of a reason to attend as many days as possible). just an idea.

We have that, a competition that runs over a year period of time.
our classifications are set 35 - 40 cm 40 - 45cm 45 - 50 cm

i happen to agree with you that indeed there is a good possibility to scale it by ability but i reckon that this is the meaning of competition so it is a bit confusing for me.

for 2010 i hope to have many of these discussions and to speak a lot with everybody on international events. as when we can develop one system for all then we can have a worldwide competition.

cheers mate - Marco
hi marco, i agree that good discussion is the way forward. if you have a-frame decided by ability and not height it is much easier as well as competitive i.e. if you have a class, say 31lb-35lb with 4 or 5 dogs in that class then everything will be to play for and every one will feel that they have a sporting chance. the way things are at present if you have a dog that can do say 30 and you know their will be dogs there that can do 40+ whats the point in entering and paying expensive fuel bills!
doing it by height would be clumsy to say the least " everybody with their measuring rule and the arguing about a quarter of an inch here and there!
its interesting you mention about having a season to compete in with points on offer! ian.

[ianhurley]

I'll try and explain if you have a p.b. (personal best) and your in a given class you still get the meaning of competition from others in your class, with everything being closer, then all the more reason to train harder to get the edge on your competitors in your class. it doesn't matter if one dog is 18in and another is 22in, they are both more equal in ability and therein thus the competitive element! hope that makes sense. ian.

[bullmatt]

thats got my vote.

[andrewp35]

Sounds fair Ian.
Would the class your dog is put into be determined by a 3 run average? which probably makes sence,rather than a dog turning up and doing say 38 overs in 1 minute (PB) and being entered into said class for it never to do that again and not be in the running for honours etc...

[quinlent]

Feb 22, 2010 19:21:59 GMT @ianhurley said:

I'll try and explain if you have a p.b. (personal best) and your in a given class you still get the meaning of competition from others in your class, with everything being closer, then all the more reason to train harder to get the edge on your competitors in your class. it doesn't matter if one dog is 18in and another is 22in, they are both more equal in ability and therein thus the competitive element! hope that makes sense. ian.

Hi Ian,
i understand yer point within every discipline this might work but when you want to use all the information to find out which is best dog overall it is coming short in our experience.

The A frame is one example for my own understanding where i reckon you are wright. i have a 44 cm 17,6kg dog PB 35 at this moment and his sister a 36 CM 13,2 kg bitch with a PB of 32. now what we where trying within our competition is a way to let them compete towards eachother (as we have the opinion the 36 cm bitch does a better achievement then the 44 cm dog). and we did that by giving points to the achievement.

The reason is that we are not in search for a champion per discipline even though we have these rewards, but we are primarily in search for the best overall athlete.

it comes clear the best at the high jump discipline when a dog is measured 40 cm and he jumps 1,75 m high he jumps 4,375 times his own hight. A 44 cm high dog will have to jump 192,5cm to do the same. when we measure the cm the 44 cm dog will outmatch the 40 cm dog with less ability.

we have founded out that we in every way can calculate everything back to hight and weight for pulling (which we can't do as it is elegal here) but we go to Belgium on occasion to work on this.

ofcourse there are rules, else it doesn't work.
every dog that competes within the D.S.A. is measured by a team that measure all the dogs. it is easy to cheat so they do the measuring. We founded out that it will allways be a bit different as a dog can easy drop his hight. What we agreed on is that this team measures the dog 3 times and the average is taken to be the dogs height for competition. So there is no argument towards this as it will allways be in advance of the owner. This is becouse a dog can only drop his height instead of becomming larger then what he really is, this is impossible. weight is different every day so is measured one hr before a pull event starts we give points towards the times a dog pulls his own body wheight.

The advance to this system is that you are not up to a class of for instance 5 dogs in yer class but it makes an open battle where you have to beat every one in every discipline to gain the points for the overal championship over a 4 times 3 sets over 9 different disciplines in a year time. So the performance is not up to one event but it creates the possibility to compete worldwide with any dog of any size on eaqual therms.

it is not yet perfect and we are working on the system every day to get there. i am very pleased with your arguments about ability and i will certainly discuss it and give it a try!

but my main argument towards the A frame as you have explained is that it is easy to fraude.

as i want to win i'll enter my dog in a class below his ability and even on the classification set it is easy to cheat i can easily let my dog go 5 times less over the A. so getting a personal best is not the main concern anymore but winning a class is.

i am not saying i am wright but these would be my concernes.
i hope people will reply about this and that we all together can come up with a system that works for all.


with respect - Marco

[ianhurley]

right, where do i begin? lets start with the fraud issue "tisn't cheatin, tis out wittin"! i have already gave this some thought and as i see it, i dont see a real problem! yes people can do this or that i.e. do less runs, bring a dog in for a field trial (p.b.) fat.

Doing less runs before the rest of your competitors in your class have had their go, would be a risky strategy to say the least and if your the last competitor to go and thats what you want to do "fine". for others they may wish to go further than just winning their class, get a personal best, go forward with other class winners to compare winning scores for best in show, try to get (A) 90+ RUNS OVER 3 ROUNDS TO GAIN LEVEL OF GOOD ATHLETE or (B) 100+RUNS TO GAIN A LEVEL OF EXCELLENCE, they will make this harder for them to do if they stifle themselves! one other thing, once a dog moves up a division it can never move back down.

[ianhurley]

personally i would be in favor of giving only the best in show class winner points towards a championship, as that dog has in effect beaten every other dog there, all be it in-directly . but not for every class winner, (reason, there may only be one or two in some classes and some classes maybe won with quite low scores).

[quinlent]

What do you think of our system?
it must be understould that the dog that gained the most possible points becomes our champion

Dutch Stafford Athletics



Why a competition?

There are several reasons to start with a competition. Mainly and first it connects the different clubs that form the SBTSC – NL. Second: it is an opportunity to an international connection with your peers and part from your opinion you are able to take proven results and facts to any form of discussion. Third: It is the only way facts can be collected about the physical situation of a population of dogs. It gives you the opportunity to compare you and your Stafford with other handlers and their dogs.

The competition can begin after measurements are taken and you have received your classification.

Your Stafford will have to put up with the minimum required for the competition per discipline to really enter. When not ready we will help you to get to the results required so you can start the competition.

Classification
Each dog that enters the competition is at least ten moth’s of age.
The classification goes by height.
0 - 40 cm
40 - 45 cm
45 - 50

The athletic disciplines:

Weight pull: ( due to some old rules of no meaning it happens to be illegal in the Kingdom of The Netherlands to use a dog as a pulling animal so these measurements are taken outside our border in specially organised events ) The dog that pulls the most time his body weight will be the winner.

Drag pull sprint:
Running 50 mtrs pulling a tire adapt for each class.

Sprint:
100 mtrs sprint

Hang time: for the times of 5 min – 10 min – 15 min and 20 min set points are given.

Kickbike run with Jockey every class has his own jockey distance is over 200 mtrs

High Jump: Jumping as high as possible grabbing a tug the dog that jumps the most times his body height wins
Long Jump: Jumping as far as possible the distance of the dog that jumps the most times his or her own body height wins

Aframe: as many times as possible to go over the Aframe in the set time of 60 seconds

Tug of war: two dogs holding the end of a fire hose the dog that lets go the first has lost the match

10 miles bike run within set limits for each classification

Measurements and point scores:
Every discipline with the exception of hang time and tug of war can deliver a maximum of 30 points the first fifteen will receive points starting with 2 points at qualification 15 to 30 points for the best qualification!

Tug of war when you and your dog win a match you gain 20 points the one that lost the match will loose 10 points.

Hang time every minute that your dog hangs in the tug springpole or what ever toy you prefer with his four feet from the ground you will gain two points to the maximum of 40 points.


10 miles bike run within set limits for each classification gives a 30 points bonus the fastest time of all is the one that can participate in the European Championship.


Certificate
When you participate in the competition every team will receive a certificate with al the best out of four measurements on the disciplines from the SBTSC – NL

Championship Status
You can become champion on each separate discipline gaining a 50 points bonus. And a starting device for that discipline in the European Championship!
The overall winner will be titled DSA Grand Champion.

This will run in the Netherlands and in France in 2010
please feel free to be critical.
we can organise this within a two day's event all disciplines with the average of 50 dogs competing.

I'll try to explain the thinking behind it.
we do this in Holland it is called the Dutch Stafford Athletics. organised by the SBTSC - NL
They do it in France it is called the French Stafford Athletics.
organised by the SBTSC - FR

now when there is an organisation that will organise the English Stafford Athletics at the end of the year we can organise an international event with the best two from each class from each country. The Margate field is a perfect spot but we also have locations available just across the channel in France and the same in the Netherlands. the form and function that is organised shows the interest of dutch and french people to expand their competition.

but we need to level the rules and pointsystem When you have a weightpull system that is preferred let us know and we will get the same we can make agreements on such points.

In vencimont Neil Matt Lee and Marek will experience how we organise the DSA in a two days event. I do hope to get critique to improve. so Ian feel free to tell me what you think of what we are doing over here.

Cheers - Marco

[ianhurley]

Andrew if a dog comes for a field trial over one round and gets a score of say 38, then there's no reason why that dog could never repeat that! also on match day it is over 3 rounds and it is my experience of all the good dogs I've seen in the past that they can maintain and quite often improve round on round! thereby more chance of getting a personal best and moving up a division. also with this sport even the best dogs can make mistakes and in divisions of 5 runs between the least and the best then this can make things more interesting.

[ianhurley]

hi Marco, i have seen some of the things on the net that you folks get up to across the water and all i can say is great stuff, really looks impressive. love watching the tug o war and high jump. it would indeed be good if we could make everything singular as regards to rules. the future does indeed look very bright for the bull breeds on the European stage. a.t.b ian.

[andrewp35]

Either way is finewhichever way they want to do it but what i meant to say is that their is exceptions to the rule.I dont disagree in what youre saying in that a dog can get better round on rd etc...but going back to what i said about a dog turning up doing 38 overs then never managing to do it or come close to it again.i.e being put in a division that it cant fully compete for honours in.wouldnt it be better to take a average on say 3 runs and place in a division and have maybe a fairer crack of the whip.

[ianhurley]

i think i get your point and that would be fine, lets say 35-36-37 (average=36). but what if a dog does 35- 36-36 what is his average(?) i surpose you would call it 35 and a half and put it in the 35-40 runs division. i dont think it really makes that much difference, but what do others think!

[andrewp35]

Yeah Ian thats what i meant by being fairer by average rather than just a one off performance.it would be interesting to see what others think about this also.

[ianhurley]

could just take p.bs from previous year at sacs, that would stop someone trying to fiddle!

[andrewp35]

yeah could do mate but i for one havent been to a sacs event as yet but i hope to attend regular from this summer.So none of my dogs have a PB. what do other people think?memebers of the commitee or whatever you call it be good to hear from you.

[ianhurley]

yeah, it would be good to hear from other's what they think.