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Post by owasocourin on May 11, 2010 20:25:37 GMT
 I believe we need to alter the tests we provide at the sporting days in the uk. I think they should be more stamina/endurance based. I would like to see longer a frame contests, treadmill comps, triple runs with times added together proving staying power. Dare i say it scale down the emphysis on weight pull Any thoughts on these events would be great
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Post by dog on May 11, 2010 20:48:24 GMT
As you know I agree, the Stafford in particular is an endurance athlete despite appearances.
I don't think we're pushing our dogs at all in terms of endurance and we're vastly underestimating their capabilities. I would like to see trials lasting at least ten minutes, that gives you time to get a much better idea of their fitness, drive, cardiovascular capacity and lactic acid tolerance.
A much longer A frame competition would be a test of both dog and owner...I'm out lol.
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Post by oldetyme on May 11, 2010 21:12:25 GMT
i agree, i also think it would be better to to drag pull over 100 mtrs (half of body weight) of three rounds rather than weight pull as it is generally done. three or five rounds of a-frame and tug o war. would be much better suited for the bull n terrier breeds. good topic.
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Post by bullrover on May 12, 2010 7:21:46 GMT
Although I don't go to the events due to the travel involved from Yorkshire, I would have thought to test working abilities the events should be longer with an endurance based aspect and be closer to something a working Staff/BT/Bulldog would originally have been involved in. Obviously its not practical to have events lasting an hour but in bygone days thats what they would have needed to be able to do, but being realistic I guess you can only test the speed/strength endurance and not so much the stamina. I have watched the heavy ABDs weight pulling the heavy loads and wondered if using a measure of work done a lighter fit Staff or EBT could compete. I thought about rigging up a rope and suspended pulley lifting a weight off the ground and measuring how much weight could be lifted from ground level to a given height by repetition of the exercise over a fixed time. You could either leave the weight the same for all dogs or allow competitors to go for a heavy or lighter weight to suit their dog.  |
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Post by oldetyme on May 12, 2010 9:20:15 GMT
we should also remember that dogs working against dogs or badgers were in a much higher drive than a weight pull, a-frame or tug o war dogs. the intensity is much stronger and also the desire to go on longer, the a-frame is an energy sapping exercise, designed to drain a dogs energy in short order. I suspect even the greatest fighting dogs that could fight for an hour or more, wouldn't be able to do as long on the a-frame. This would be an interesting exercise to prove, one way or the other!!!
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Rik
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Post by Rik on May 12, 2010 9:45:35 GMT
I think there should be some sort of measurement of a dogs stamina at events. I think weight pull doesn’t proof anything about the dogs stamina. In my opinion weight pull doesn’t show enough of a dogs ability at all to be highly scaled in points. Apart from the fact that if the dog does well in the weight pull the dog is trained well by the owner in the weight pulling technique.
If you want to test a dogs stamina/ endurance you don’t have to change much in the sports in my opinion. Just increase the intensity of the programme of the event.
In march we organized a 2 days event in Vencimont (Belgium) with a heavy and very busy programme. At the results of the event you could see that the intensity took his toll on the dogs. A very good measurement for endurance.
In Vencimont we did the following programme in 2 days with almost 40 dogs:
Hang time with a maximum of 20 min
Tug of War, 2 rounds of with a maximum of 20 min (40 min total)
High Jump
3 runs 100m sprint
3 runs 50m drag pull with a minimum weight of 11kgs/24lbs for the small dogs. (Almost there own weight)
3 runs 200m kickbike run with a 70kgs/154lbs jocky
3 rounds a-frame of 1 min
Weight pull
10 mile bike run through the hills of the Belgium Ardennes. Very heavy for the handlers… ;D
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Post by bullrover on May 12, 2010 15:04:13 GMT
Rik - that definitely sounds more of a stamina test. What sort of times were they doing for the 10 mile bike run?
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Post by owasocourin on May 12, 2010 20:24:30 GMT
I see no point in weight pull. Only in long distance drag pull for conditioning. I think these events should be bi-annually not every month and should concentrate on endurance/stamina based events to be taken more seriously. Treadmill comps really interest me, some sort of time x distance race.
Prize money may also raise interest. Could we not as an organsation(SACS) forefit any profit an make it a winner takes all from the entry fees. We all know how this would raise the stakes and therefore the condition of the animals attending.
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Post by dannyboy on May 12, 2010 20:55:10 GMT
My interest defently lies in the endurance/stamina side of things, and i`ve always believed that this is where most s.b.t`s fall short against there overseas cousins. eg.. talk to an openminded vet and ask the difference in the size of the trachea tubes that they have to use for a lot of staffords (suprisingly small) compared to the other type. Notice the lack of tongue, or gasping desperately for air! www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXkxcJG_Kigwhich is a common site for me personally, when i see a lot of staffords merely walking down the street unfortunately. Cheers Dan |
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Post by owasocourin on May 12, 2010 21:11:17 GMT
exactly Dan, time for change as these conformational inadequacies will cope with the current tests. At the moment the tests only require adrenalin to push the dog through
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Post by oldetyme on May 13, 2010 8:32:12 GMT
sounds like a much better test. A bit like the human equivalent of a commando course with a yomp across the breckin beacons thrown in for good measure. A good test of a dogs tenacity, drive determination, stamina and courage, perhaps not the aggressive courage of the fighting dog, but a different form of courage.
I think something like the above can be considered real work!
It would be great to see the bull n terrier breeds once again set the standard for stamina for all others to follow. a true working breed.
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Post by bullrover on May 13, 2010 10:11:17 GMT
sounds like a much better test. A bit like the human equivalent of a commando course with a yomp across the breckin beacons thrown in for good measure. A good test of a dogs tenacity, drive determination, stamina and courage, perhaps not the aggressive courage of the fighting dog, but a different form of courage. I think something like the above can be considered real work! It would be great to see the bull n terrier breeds once again set the standard for stamina for all others to follow. a true working breed. Definitely sounds more of an all round, real life type test. It would mean different types of condition/training and would be interesting to see which type of dogs came to the fore in that style of event and if they would be the same ones currently at the top. |
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Rik
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Post by Rik on May 13, 2010 18:29:38 GMT
Rik - that definitely sounds more of a stamina test. What sort of times were they doing for the 10 mile bike run? Normaly when we do the 10 mile bike run in flat holland it takes us about 1 hour. Some a bit faster, some slower. Depends on the dog. In the hills of the Belgium ardennes it took us a bit more than 1hour and 30min. Not that the dogs couldn't handle it but the people on the bikes... ;D Very heavy route |
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Post by quinlent on May 26, 2010 8:05:21 GMT
i'll be in England next week visiting the Ed Reid show.
i would love to make plans for a big DSA weekend in England.
what do you think Rik we can get ours motivated to travel can't we?
and we can organise a second one in Vencimont in 2011
it should be possible to organise it together with all active clubs
our am i talking silly and to enthusiastic now?
Marco
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Post by owasocourin on May 26, 2010 8:39:59 GMT
would love this Marco
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Post by quinlent on May 26, 2010 9:24:16 GMT
Lets do it mate
let's make it happen.
Marco
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Post by blackstaff on May 26, 2010 22:44:18 GMT
Marco it'll be good to catch up with you next weekend, really like the idea of what your saying, lets make it work  |
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Post by gamebill on May 26, 2010 23:04:00 GMT
bring a bull to sacs showground and see what dog can bring it to the ground by its nose . lol only jokeing i agree with okleydokley better stamina test and something as close to the original what the dog wes bred for
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Rik
Junior Member
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Post by Rik on May 27, 2010 5:29:42 GMT
what do you think Rik we can get ours motivated to travel can't we? The motivation will not be the problem m8! I'm alway up for a good competition! |
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Post by southern-staffords on Jun 11, 2010 8:08:42 GMT
i'll be in England next week visiting the Ed Reid show. i would love to make plans for a big DSA weekend in England. what do you think Rik we can get ours motivated to travel can't we? and we can organise a second one in Vencimont in 2011 it should be possible to organise it together with all active clubs our am i talking silly and to enthusiastic now? Marco Marco this sounds great would love to talk it over with you on the 27th at Staffordtimes. Not to sure how many are willing to travel from here though m8, much talk not much action |
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Post by mayhem on Jul 20, 2010 22:48:06 GMT
well i do agree there could be longer stamina based tests but longer a frame  i feel the a frame is the most damaging test of all after all dogs are not designed to repeat this exercise it has no relation to anyn of the original dogs work it causes alot of concusion to there shouldrs and front legs and lengthening this in any way has to detramental to the front of even the lightest of dogs if u want a test that encompasses the dogs true work tug of war is the way ok it might be boring t some to stand over the dog for hours while they hold twist pull and flex every muscle for up to 3 hours but every 1 says about the true work of the stafford it wasnt running or going over an a frame they were gladiators bred to hold and tear with there mouths grappel with every ounce of strength and not quit wether through pain or exhaustion why is there all the talk of better tests and no mention of tugs ok i understand the danger of dogs getting hold of each other but there are measures that can be taken perspex walls frames etc many dogs will out run bull breeds dogs that are designed to run long distance and a lot more than mentiond here look at the huskys in the iditerod ?? excuse my spelling 1000 miles in three days if u want a distance runner y notmove twords these kind of dogs if u want a bully give it some thing like it was designed to do surely some 1 could come up with a kinda mechanical bull for hang tough a safe way t tug o war even a simulated rat pit wit lil ballons / balls the other test we do atm do give some indication of drive weight pull when done properly is an awesome spectacle % of body weight does have a place in showing drive /determination and the important willingness to please thats an integrale part of our beloved bull breeds if i wanted a dog that could run for miles running with some thing attached to it id buy a husky i want a bullie hes an awesome athlete a brawler a cut above the rest to test a middle weight boxer by entering him in a marathon does not prove him a boxer jst my oppinion atb :-) |
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Post by oldetyme on Jul 24, 2010 8:44:00 GMT
champers... i would just like to pick up a few points you have made. firstly you say that a-frame is bad for the dogs because of the concussion to the shoulders. this does not have to be the case, crash mats either side could eliminate or reduce these problems, you say that a-frame has nothing to do with the original work of the bull n terriers! the fighting dog was required to twist and turn in a small area, i think the a-frame replicates this to some degree! i have said to others in the past about ratting comps in the cage with netting over the top, using balloons instead of rats but it was dismissed by others because as they said "it could be dangerous with the pieces of balloons in the dogs mouths! i have done this with my dogs and found that the point of contact with the tooth causes the balloon to shoot off in the opposite direction! this is down to the law of physics. yes i suppose a dog could pick up pieces after it has burst all the balloons but if the handler was in there with the dog ready to grab it then there would only be a small chance of this, also i think it wouldn't be that easy for a dog to swallow a large piece! i believe in Northumberland (morpeth) they hold competitions for the bedlington terriers using this method with cash prize money on offer. champers i agree with you that more should be done with tug o war, i think it has more in common with the digging trials with badgers as-well as pit fighting but without the cruelty or illegality. we could invite fanciers of the various sporting Irish terrier breeds to come and compare their dogs with our sporting bull terrier breeds which would give them another avenue to test their dogs other than just the show ring!  |
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Post by mayhem on Jul 29, 2010 18:13:01 GMT
fair com bout crash mats oldetyme id love t try tug comp be good t watch too i love watching them play tug and always do the mrs head in when she watching the soaps playing tug wit my lil terriers lol is there a site for the sim ratting wit beddies ?? be interseting to see how its run atb mikey |
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Post by oldetyme on Jul 30, 2010 9:07:34 GMT
hi mikey, it was way back in the very early ninetees when i first heard of them doing balloon busting comps with beddies, not sure if they still do it! it would be easy just to run it in the cage like a-frame. lee who runs this site said earlier that he hoped to put on a tug o war event at sacs, that would be good to see. |
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Post by mayhem on Aug 2, 2010 11:40:35 GMT
that would be great:) i just saw on bullbreeds forum about powerdog they do a pig chase like a large lure over 100 meters but the dog needs to catch the pig a large sack wit stuffing and work points for catching it in the fastest time also i max pull with a set up like a scale attached to a raggy see how much the dogs pull and a sled pull with a 5 of body weight its written in broken english and only an outline of the rules and scoring system i was reading it at 3am so did nt make much sense but looks interesting
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Post by mayhem on Aug 2, 2010 11:47:55 GMT
powerdog.fi/ its in finnish but theres a tranlate button on right side of screen
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Post by oldetyme on Aug 2, 2010 23:07:38 GMT
interesting vids champers, thanks for posting. even the show bulldogs gave a fair acount of themselves! one or two nice staffords too.
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I believe we need to alter the tests we provide at the sporting days in the uk. I think they should be more stamina/endurance based. I would like to see longer a frame contests, treadmill comps, triple runs with times added together proving staying power. Dare i say it scale down the emphysis on weight pull 
i feel the a frame is the most damaging test of all after all dogs are not designed to repeat this exercise it has no relation to anyn of the original dogs work it causes alot of concusion to there shouldrs and front legs and lengthening this in any way has to detramental to the front of even the lightest of dogs if u want a test that encompasses the dogs true work tug of war is the way ok it might be boring t some to stand over the dog for hours while they hold twist pull and flex every muscle for up to 3 hours but every 1 says about the true work of the stafford it wasnt running or going over an a frame they were gladiators bred to hold and tear with there mouths grappel with every ounce of strength and not quit wether through pain or exhaustion why is there all the talk of better tests and no mention of tugs ok i understand the danger of dogs getting hold of each other but there are measures that can be taken perspex walls frames etc many dogs will out run bull breeds dogs that are designed to run long distance and a lot more than mentiond here look at the huskys in the iditerod ?? excuse my spelling 1000 miles in three days if u want a distance runner y notmove twords these kind of dogs if u want a bully give it some thing like it was designed to do surely some 1 could come up with a kinda mechanical bull for hang tough a safe way t tug o war even a simulated rat pit wit lil ballons / balls the other test we do atm do give some indication of drive weight pull when done properly is an awesome spectacle % of body weight does have a place in showing drive /determination and the important willingness to please thats an integrale part of our beloved bull breeds if i wanted a dog that could run for miles running with some thing attached to it id buy a husky i want a bullie hes an awesome athlete a brawler a cut above the rest to test a middle weight boxer by entering him in a marathon does not prove him a boxer jst my oppinion atb :-)