Weight Pulling comp ?

[playerman]

If we was to plan a UPF weight pulling event in the london area Or there about's would you attend ?

[Griffa]

i would lol i would just follow u guys all over the u.k ;D ;D ;D

[oldetyme]

i would if i could sort out some of my dogs bad habits, like biting his lead or turning around and biting his harness, when he does pull, he does it well!!!!!!!!! can these problems be fixed?

[owasocourin]

would love to attend, can my terrier compete?

[cj1]

yes your terrier can compete in all UPF events ;D
yes your dogs bitting probs can be cured make the weight lighter when training untill he/she pulls correctly would need to see him/her to give more addvice ;D
Mickey your a weight pull groupie pmsl ;D ;D ;D ;D

[owasocourin]

Im interested in all things canine and willing to try things out. I do not understand the benefits of weight pulling. This doesnt mean im not willing to listen to the weight pullers side of things. I DID WEIGHT PULL WITH MY TERRIER AT THE ACES SHOW AND HE DID IT ON COMMAND WITH QUITE A SMOOTH MOVEMENT, (sorry about caps lock.) i did enjoy it but on reflection im not sure of the benefits. Any thoughts Playerman.

[eliza]

Hey, for a couple of years ago, a jack russel was doing weightpulling in Belgium. And he did it very well. Without a bait by the way

[cj1]

my russell pulls 20x his body weight hes only 14lb ;D ;D

[leighandapple]

We'd love to come along.

[jaysteph]

i would come,,,, and could get sum pointers on how to get my dog doing this correct let us know when and where cheers buddy

[frank]

May 24, 2010 7:04:11 GMT @owasocourin said:

Im interested in all things canine and willing to try things out. I do not understand the benefits of weight pulling. This doesnt mean im not willing to listen to the weight pullers side of things. I DID WEIGHT PULL WITH MY TERRIER AT THE ACES SHOW AND HE DID IT ON COMMAND WITH QUITE A SMOOTH MOVEMENT, (sorry about caps lock.) i did enjoy it but on reflection im not sure of the benefits. Any thoughts Playerman.

Benefits.... but we can also argue, what is the bennefit of anythin we do with our dogs? We want to see the strength of the dog, speed, stamina etc etc. But NOTHING can imitate the work these dogs ever did in the box.

I think that a good combi of weightpull(strength, determination), a frame(stamina, agility) sprint(speed, eagerness), tug of war(determination) and maybe high jump(agility, capability) can at least show that these dogs are still capable to perform.

[owasocourin]

May 24, 2010 20:55:36 GMT frank said:

May 24, 2010 7:04:11 GMT @owasocourin said:

Im interested in all things canine and willing to try things out. I do not understand the benefits of weight pulling. This doesnt mean im not willing to listen to the weight pullers side of things. I DID WEIGHT PULL WITH MY TERRIER AT THE ACES SHOW AND HE DID IT ON COMMAND WITH QUITE A SMOOTH MOVEMENT, (sorry about caps lock.) i did enjoy it but on reflection im not sure of the benefits. Any thoughts Playerman.

Benefits.... but we can also argue, what is the bennefit of anythin we do with our dogs? We want to see the strength of the dog, speed, stamina etc etc. But NOTHING can imitate the work these dogs ever did in the box.

I think that a good combi of weightpull(strength, determination), a frame(stamina, agility) sprint(speed, eagerness), tug of war(determination) and maybe high jump(agility, capability) can at least show that these dogs are still capable to perform.

I agree frank with all the points you have raised with the tests above apart from the types of weight pulled in weight pull comps. They are heavy, and a dog trained with weights of that type will surely become restricted in flexibility and require an increased amount of oxygen to feed its muscles due to bulk. Low weight at increased periods of work will harden but not bulk the frame of what is supposed to be an animal capable of long periods of work.
It may suit the heavier bull breeds as there initial work tasks, hog, bear, bull would not of required the same endurance levels(still not far off) that bull and terrier types require.
Maybe im looking at this all to deeply, but i think when we wonder from the path a little now in the future we could be miles off.
I may also sound a hypocrite because ive trained Lily with heavy weight but you have to try and learn from your own mistakes ey ;D.

[anton]

But Neil, since weightpull is dont by % its not reallybenificial to ahve a lot of bulk. If you look at the apbt's that pull in usa, they are actually more leggy then bulk. In fact, if you compare ADBA, AKC & UKC dogs then thats is the tendens.
Its the combination of the different types of sports that determine a good allround dog in my opinion. I agree with you, if that is what your saying at lesat, that a competition that is *just* weightpull is too limited. I would at least like to see sprint and tug of war.
Unfortunatly not a lot of comps crown a dog of the day like SACS do. I think it would be really nice to have that more. Not only for the sport days themselves but also for the site. So many plans, so little time.

offtopic: anybody really good with php & sql on this board? PM me

[playerman]

We are trying to sort a venue out down south for a UPF Event but having some problems with sports halls etc,etc,could any one help out at all ?

Cheers
Steve

[...Paul...]

Would defo be interestd! When it happening!

[owasocourin]

need to re read the post above paul.

[frank]

May 25, 2010 7:53:51 GMT @owasocourin said:

May 24, 2010 20:55:36 GMT frank said:

Benefits.... but we can also argue, what is the bennefit of anythin we do with our dogs? We want to see the strength of the dog, speed, stamina etc etc. But NOTHING can imitate the work these dogs ever did in the box.

I think that a good combi of weightpull(strength, determination), a frame(stamina, agility) sprint(speed, eagerness), tug of war(determination) and maybe high jump(agility, capability) can at least show that these dogs are still capable to perform.

I agree frank with all the points you have raised with the tests above apart from the types of weight pulled in weight pull comps. They are heavy, and a dog trained with weights of that type will surely become restricted in flexibility and require an increased amount of oxygen to feed its muscles due to bulk. Low weight at increased periods of work will harden but not bulk the frame of what is supposed to be an animal capable of long periods of work.
It may suit the heavier bull breeds as there initial work tasks, hog, bear, bull would not of required the same endurance levels(still not far off) that bull and terrier types require.
Maybe im looking at this all to deeply, but i think when we wonder from the path a little now in the future we could be miles off.
I may also sound a hypocrite because ive trained Lily with heavy weight but you have to try and learn from your own mistakes ey ;D.

The times I trained my dogs for weightpull I trained them to be as lean and light as possible. You understand that this is because of the percentage rule. My dogs where actually lighter and more agile than before, because the training regime has a lot of cardio in it.

If you want to have your dog on it's best for weightpull, tug of war, high jump and a-frame, you can not settle for a heavier dog.

Yes, you are looking at it too deeply, as really creating the enviroment in the pit will never be possible other then to enter it, and this is also the only way to know or you did it right, or that your dog is worth it.

You can only test a few things, and thats it. NEVER will you be able to pick the best pit dog with these sort of things without actually pitting them.

So miles off? For what? If they succeed in these couple of events I just mentioned, you know you have a dog that is active, has some spirit, is strong and has some agility. Thats already more than most dogs will be these days.

Off topic: Did you know that Dogo Argentino's at La Cocha walk for more than 8 to 10 hours with the horses on rough terrain and hunt, already from 5 to 6 months? If we talk about stamina.............

[Griffa]

well when i am getting winston ready for some weight pull i do a lot of cardio with him u have to think if these dogs was not fit in that way after they have pulled a few times they would be out of breath some of these comps go on a bit i think cardio is as important as strenth when doing weight pull i am not sure about being agile thou i keep winston agile because i like to see him on the flirt pole and lure racing and inculde it in his routines when getting ready i no some of the other weight pull fokes wont run there dogs incase of injuring them but personaly like a all rounder i dont think weight pull is a test to see if the dog would be good in the box but they defo have to be fit in cardio to complet the whole comp and be placed i have noticed my winston a few times start to look tired half way through a weight pull season and suck it up and get more determind to do it and go on to dubble the weight he was slowing on.

[...Paul...]

ive read through the posts an theres alot of peple that have differant views on whats the best way for weight pull dogs. But i would say that size does not produce more strength but depends on what you want your dog to win! Most weight pulled or best times body weight???

for this is personally go big an strong for most weight pulled as i thinks its easyer for them to get moving before they really have to dig deep due to size, and small light an ok strength to pull more times body weight, ive seen a few comps were lil 12kg dogs are pulling 600kg an winning the show on times body weight, but getting beat in most weight pulled coz a 35kg dog pulled 1000kgs. so i personally think its up to u what u try for. all i know is im not gonna be putting my 15kg dog to try for most weight pulled unless there was groups. i would defo be trying for best times body weight.

cheers Paul xx

[owasocourin]

I mentioned before that heavy weight pull may suit heavy bull breeds, dogs that had been pitted on bear etc, dogos differ slightly in the stamina stakes as they track there prey over great distances therefore have been breed for greater stamina by there conformation.
The pit has gone in most areas thank fuck, but i do think to achieve the best dogs today we need to set the best tasks. I dont think we go anywhere near that yet and hope to do some which are endurance and temperment based with my dogs soon. I would not be happy to have a dog that just above most pets in terms of fitness. Our Bull breeds should be compared to the working dogs out there, the distances covered by fox hounds and collies in terms of endurance.
I dont think i am looking at this too deeply. I wish to see real trials relevant to Bull and terrier qualities. Strength is involved but this would not be the strength type of a body builder. I cannot see that you could hope to achieve your best pull out of you dog when its at its lightest. I have weight trained and this notion does not work. Marios PODGALANSKI (spelt wrong) The worlds strongest man (5 times), pulled a boeing 747 or a bloody big plane anyway for 20m in a record time, he's flexible(can kick above his head), Has bugger all body fat and prob has good cardio, but he could not go the distance with Ricky Hatton and alike for mobility or cardio.

Middle weight boxers would never train in this fashion. Some weight train yes, but fast sets with fast explosive exersices useing fast twitch fibers, a completely diffrent way of training muscles as opposed to that used in heavy weight training.

[Griffa]

i agree we need a real test for the dogs but i think heavy weights should have a small part in it any sort of fighting dog would need a lot of strenth to wrestle the opponant be it a dog at the same weight or a beast twice its size but the big bull and bear baitin dogs would need more strenth i think they would still have to have as much stamina and cardio as the dog fighting dogs they have got more of a task wen its twice or three times the size of it they would have to be very fit but saying that they did used to swop the dogs wen they got tierd didnt they

[frank]

May 27, 2010 19:47:53 GMT @owasocourin said:

dogos differ slightly in the stamina stakes as they track there prey over great distances therefore have been breed for greater stamina by there conformation.

The Dogo was also mainly a sample. But on the other hand my first Stafford have done more than 3 hours on the bike and also about 45 to 1 hour swimming in between. The bitch was 39 cm and 14,5 kg. Think this shows(besides my stupidity at that time) also stamina, and a lot of Pitdogs would show the same, if not better stamina than her.

The pit has gone in most areas thank fuck, but i do think to achieve the best dogs today we need to set the best tasks. I dont think we go anywhere near that yet and hope to do some which are endurance and temperment based with my dogs soon. I would not be happy to have a dog that just above most pets in terms of fitness. Our Bull breeds should be compared to the working dogs out there, the distances covered by fox hounds and collies in terms of endurance.


I dont think i am looking at this too deeply. I wish to see real trials relevant to Bull and terrier qualities. Strength is involved but this would not be the strength type of a body builder. I cannot see that you could hope to achieve your best pull out of you dog when its at its lightest. I have weight trained and this notion does not work.

Clearly you do not see the training of a Pit dog in the right light. A Pit dog is trained to be ready at his lowest possible weight, staying still strong and active. There is a turning point where you go to deep and the dog weakens, then you know that you have to keep more muscle on him. To know this, you have to try and error for a while, to ligh, too heavy etc etc


Marios PODGALANSKI (spelt wrong) The worlds strongest man (5 times), pulled a boeing 747 or a bloody big plane anyway for 20m in a record time, he's flexible(can kick above his head), Has bugger all body fat and prob has good cardio, but he could not go the distance with Ricky Hatton and alike for mobility or cardio.

Because of this you also should not only keep the athletics only to 1 thing, you need all sorts of competitions combined to get the best " overall dog" A dog that is too heavy built will never be the best at all things. Thats where your comparrison goes wrong, you make it only about weightpull, but weightpull, a-frame, tug of war, high jump etc combined WILL give you the best overall dog. But still, a good Pit dog could dislike all these things........ So you only know you have a fit dog.


Middle weight boxers would never train in this fashion. Some weight train yes, but fast sets with fast explosive exersices useing fast twitch fibers, a completely diffrent way of training muscles as opposed to that used in heavy weight training.

You could change weightpull into speed pulling if you dislike it that much, it also asks more endurance from the dog.

[oldetyme]

i think drag pulling half of dogs body weight over a distance of say 1 mile in the shortest time would be more suitable for the bull n terriers breeds. their handler could run alongside if they are fit enough or use a push bike. i would use the latter. ;D ;D ;D. that way people don't have to be as fit or capable as their dogs, giving everybody an equal chance. I do think more of our dogs would succeed that way and it would help to maintain the type of dog we require. Also more people would be able to train for comps as all they need is a harness and sled with weights, unlike conventional weight pull, where most people don't have the facilities to train. that's part of the attraction for me of a-frame, tug o war and drag pulling, is that we all can have these things, and have a more equal chance to succeed, making it more competitive.

[dog]

In my experience most dogs find pulling half their body weight a bit of a struggle even over a very short distance. I think most, if not all dogs would give up over mile especially if it wasn't baited. Maybe with a bit less weight it would be practical.

I think a relatively short short test of 2-300 metres with half the body weight would be a good test of strength and tenacity.

[Shakka-Staffs]

i agree dog some dogs might do a mile with that weight but not many.

[owasocourin]

May 30, 2010 10:17:20 GMT frank said:

May 27, 2010 19:47:53 GMT @owasocourin said:

dogos differ slightly in the stamina stakes as they track there prey over great distances therefore have been breed for greater stamina by there conformation.

The Dogo was also mainly a sample. But on the other hand my first Stafford have done more than 3 hours on the bike and also about 45 to 1 hour swimming in between. The bitch was 39 cm and 14,5 kg. Think this shows(besides my stupidity at that time) also stamina, and a lot of Pitdogs would show the same, if not better stamina than her.

The pit has gone in most areas thank fuck, but i do think to achieve the best dogs today we need to set the best tasks. I dont think we go anywhere near that yet and hope to do some which are endurance and temperment based with my dogs soon. I would not be happy to have a dog that just above most pets in terms of fitness. Our Bull breeds should be compared to the working dogs out there, the distances covered by fox hounds and collies in terms of endurance.


I dont think i am looking at this too deeply. I wish to see real trials relevant to Bull and terrier qualities. Strength is involved but this would not be the strength type of a body builder. I cannot see that you could hope to achieve your best pull out of you dog when its at its lightest. I have weight trained and this notion does not work.

Clearly you do not see the training of a Pit dog in the right light. A Pit dog is trained to be ready at his lowest possible weight, staying still strong and active. There is a turning point where you go to deep and the dog weakens, then you know that you have to keep more muscle on him. To know this, you have to try and error for a while, to ligh, too heavy etc etc


Marios PODGALANSKI (spelt wrong) The worlds strongest man (5 times), pulled a boeing 747 or a bloody big plane anyway for 20m in a record time, he's flexible(can kick above his head), Has bugger all body fat and prob has good cardio, but he could not go the distance with Ricky Hatton and alike for mobility or cardio.

Because of this you also should not only keep the athletics only to 1 thing, you need all sorts of competitions combined to get the best " overall dog" A dog that is too heavy built will never be the best at all things. Thats where your comparrison goes wrong, you make it only about weightpull, but weightpull, a-frame, tug of war, high jump etc combined WILL give you the best overall dog. But still, a good Pit dog could dislike all these things........ So you only know you have a fit dog.


Middle weight boxers would never train in this fashion. Some weight train yes, but fast sets with fast explosive exersices useing fast twitch fibers, a completely diffrent way of training muscles as opposed to that used in heavy weight training.

You could change weightpull into speed pulling if you dislike it that much, it also asks more endurance from the dog.

My comparison of the dogo was not to the pit types but to the other heavy Bull breeds as im sure a pit dog would surpass the dogo at endurance.

I do not have any experience of training a pit dog but strength does not need to be achieved by heavy weight. I understand 'very clearly' that a dog too light will loose strength, but a dog at correct weight for enduranced based tasks( im sure that is what the pit was in the main part) Will not have the correct body type for a weight lifter. Distance pulling and the sort done by human sprinters would be far superior.

I will not say that you 'clearly do not understand' this Frank as i think you will agree a top class middle weight boxer would not train on heavy weights as it would have adverse effects to his body type considering his task ahead, this does not mean there are not varied ways to train to achieve the correct type of strength.

So yes heavy weight pull, sprint luring and A frame will give you the best over all dog at those tasks but not the best over all dog in the fitness standards of a pit dog. These tests are incorrect for the type of fitness required. If you extended the weight pull to a light drag for a good distance, made the A frame 4 mins continous, and lured for a mile and a half on a continous loop i think you'd have a far higher standard of dog closer to the real deal in the type of fitness required.

[oldetyme]

May 30, 2010 15:08:02 GMT @dog said:

In my experience most dogs find pulling half their body weight a bit of a struggle even over a very short distance. I think most, if not all dogs would give up over mile especially if it wasn't baited. Maybe with a bit less weight it would be practical.

I think a relatively short short test of 2-300 meters with half the body weight would be a good test of strength and tenacity.

maybe it could be done in stages! or rounds of a 100mtrs or so with the enthuses on endurance, i agree with Neil that we are not getting the most out of our dogs, its about time things were moved on for those that want to get the most out of their dogs!
when it comes to training a young or new dog, obviously you would not expect your dog to pull over a long distance, but add distance as your dog improves, slowly, slowly catches the monkey.

[frank]

May 30, 2010 16:04:58 GMT @owasocourin said:

May 30, 2010 10:17:20 GMT frank said:

You could change weightpull into speed pulling if you dislike it that much, it also asks more endurance from the dog.

My comparison of the dogo was not to the pit types but to the other heavy Bull breeds as im sure a pit dog would surpass the dogo at endurance.

I do not have any experience of training a pit dog but strength does not need to be achieved by heavy weight.

Your correct, but to me it gives some insight in the tenacity of the dog. But drag pulling could do the trick also I guess.


I understand 'very clearly' that a dog too light will loose strength, but a dog at correct weight for enduranced based tasks( im sure that is what the pit was in the main part) Will not have the correct body type for a weight lifter. Distance pulling and the sort done by human sprinters would be far superior.

Maybe your right, but as said before, with all the tasks counted and taken the overall average will also give the best dog in generall over these tasks. I do think that even when weightpulling is changed for drag pulling the (overall)results will be almost if not completely the same.


I will not say that you 'clearly do not understand' this Frank as i think you will agree a top class middle weight boxer would not train on heavy weights as it would have adverse effects to his body type considering his task ahead, this does not mean there are not varied ways to train to achieve the correct type of strength.

Yes, but these athletes actually go into battle, "our" dogs don't. We do this also for fun.

If I had a pitdog to train I would not even do A-frame, tug of war and weightpull..........


So yes heavy weight pull, sprint luring and A frame will give you the best over all dog at those tasks but not the best over all dog in the fitness standards of a pit dog. These tests are incorrect for the type of fitness required. If you extended the weight pull to a light drag for a good distance, made the A frame 4 mins continous, and lured for a mile and a half on a continous loop i think you'd have a far higher standard of dog closer to the real deal in the type of fitness required.

As said before, not many pit man use these types of activities, and still get their dogs in THE BEST SHAPE for the job. Only the things they do are not as spectacular as our events.

For us it is not the task to see how good a handler can train his dog I guess(it counts, but not the main goal), it is the goal to see how a dog can perform. And not even changing weightpull to dragpull will make him a better pit dog.

For the pit mostly only a lot of endurance work is done, and mostly non of our fancy activities. A-frame done too much is even harmfull for your dogs joints and kidneys!!!!

A-frame 4 minutes continious would be great for a show....... but I can tell you that with a good dog I did not see 1 handler last time who would still stand at 3,5 minutes ;D Let alone 4 minutes ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[oldetyme]

i think if we are thinking of going down the road of doing 4 Min's on a-frame, then it may be better to use a short lunge whip, that way the handler could stay in one place while the dog does the work, this way it doesn't matter if your not getting the same speed in the short run, as this is more about endurance in the long run, i have been doing this with my own dog today.

[owasocourin]

its not about the numbers, my lilly achieves around 32 a min because of her style, but i do want her to achieve the same for each minuite. Endurance and drive the key mate not speed showing lactic acid tolerance .