APBT origins

[owasocourin]

Having read Mr Stratton's views on the origins of the pit bull, which is that they are decended from Heavy hounds, I realised this conflicts with the general view of most that they are a cross between Bull dogs and terriers, breed best to best from the pit resultant in a diffrent shape to the Stafford.
Now i have read Dr Dieter fleig's book 'the stafford' in which he states that the Pit Bull is a mixture of breeds. He explains this as the reason for the massive variance in 'type' within the breed.
Does any one on here have any thoughts as to the origins of the breed, I have my ideas but would love to hear more that i could pick from

Cheers, Proffesor Neil ;D

[dog]

They're both guessing and Stratton seems to contradict himself on every page.

I would just have a guess yourself, you'd be just as likely as them to get it right...or wrong.

[stefan]

If you breed worker to worker and you don't care about type and only breed from your own stock the dogs start looking different from dogs of other breeders. Even if the work is the same.

[oldetyme]

i must admit some apbt's do look houndy but how you would maintain gameness by out crossing to other non game breeds and keeping that elusive trait is a mystery,especially when you consider it is hard enough to get even when breeding from pure game lines of pit dogs!!! but on the other hand, were the original bull baiting bulldogs pit game!! just because they baited bulls doesn't make them pit game and the terriers used were equally unlikely to be pit game, again just because they worked underground doesn't make them game in the pit sense of the word. but by a combination of crossing and hard testing they were able to create the game bred fighting bull n terrier, thats if you believe that version!!! or are they pure bulldogs!!! i fancy the former version for various reasons, but thats j.m.o.

[owasocourin]

All top points Ian, ive seen a few pics of Hammonds lines and they could well pass as hounds. How do we know how game hound breeds are if they were never tested properly in that department? Terriers must surely register as Game in every sense of the word fighting an sometimes killing adversarys underground with a lack of oxygen, not leaving there enemy until dug out, so an outcross is more than possible in my eyes.
I spoke to my bro today he said he thought the variance in type could happen within the breed. Im not so sure such a massive difference in body, head, height and other features.

I like the heavy hound theory, i think the Bull and terrier theory is a stafford history and think the unknown out cross (possibly coon hound amongst others) is the history of the apbt, well thats at the mo anyway, LOL.

[dog]

I've no doubt that given time and careful selective breeding you could get almost any shape and size of dog you want from identical looking stock. The fact that the Pug was bred from Wolves proves the point. You can get massive variation in one litter from 'pure' stock, multiply that into a five or ten year breeding programme and you could create very different looking dogs. Given a hardcore culling regime as would have been employed for fighting dogs then I'm sure you can achieve massive variations within the timescale we're talking about. I don't think Fleig's assertion that you cannot get variation without outcross stands up to scrutiny.

That's not how I imagine it happened however. I don't see a reason why outcrosses wouldn't have been used. If it failed then the dogs would be culled or die in the pit, no big losses to be had and plenty of gain possible.

[owasocourin]

Hes not saying you cannot get variation more like you cant get that degree of variation.

[dog]

May 29, 2010 21:02:10 GMT @owasocourin said:

Hes not saying you cannot get variation more like you cant get that degree of variation.

I realise that, I'm saying that you can get that degree of variation, you could get alot more too if you really wanted.

[paddy]

May 29, 2010 10:45:20 GMT @dog said:

They're both guessing and Stratton seems to contradict himself on every page.
.

you ever read Louis Colby's book?...his father imported staffords from england/ireland to america...the Colby strain being the basis for the modern APBT...those original dogs imported by J.P looked like....Staffords

[dannyboy]

Interesting discussion!!
E.g of what was taken over from England...
www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=12598
and a few dogs from around that time



www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=16128

Then if you look at around the 1820/30`s there seemed to be a big change in the "look" of a lot of the dogs? In my opinion i reckon something was added into the mix, im gonna go with some kind of mastiff....but at the end of the day none of us will ever know for sure, and its all a guessing game really.
Cheers Dan.

[oldetyme]

the fact that you can get apbt's over a 100lb suggests mastiff could have been used, also hounds would have been crossed with pits for hunting, so i believe that this blood has crept in to the main lines, but i still have trouble excepting that they would have proved worth while over a period of time, compared with pure smaller pits!! hmmmm.

[oldetyme]

May 29, 2010 20:04:53 GMT @owasocourin said:

All top points Ian, ive seen a few pics of Hammonds lines and they could well pass as hounds. How do we know how game hound breeds are if they were never tested properly in that department? Terriers must surely register as Game in every sense of the word fighting an sometimes killing adversarys underground with a lack of oxygen, not leaving there enemy until dug out, so an outcross is more than possible in my eyes.
I spoke to my bro today he said he thought the variance in type could happen within the breed. Im not so sure such a massive difference in body, head, height and other features.

I like the heavy hound theory, i think the Bull and terrier theory is a stafford history and think the unknown out cross (possibly coon hound amongst others) is the history of the apbt, well thats at the mo anyway, LOL.

How do we know how game hounds are if they have never been tested? therein thus the answer!! As for terriers, they may well be game in the sense of working under ground but that would have little or no bearing in the pit sense!! gameness means different things to different people, there's the gameness of the pit dog, the game birds,working terriers even race horses!! but they are not the same in every sense, even the birds are not game in the same sense as pit dogs, in that they don't have to come up to scratch (they are set). It doesn't matter how long a terrier stays at its adversary, the point is, it doesn't have to scratch at the end, and so it is not game in the sense of a game pit dog, sure it is game in the sense of a working terrier, but the two are not the same thing, if you get the point I'm making? A pit dog can fight for six hours non stop but if it doesn't scratch at the end, then it would still be considered a cur (not game). the great stormer was a superb match dog but he never got to prove one way or the other if he was truly game!! and he won in 2hrs and 26Min's but he still didn't prove if he was really game!!!! This is why over time psycho has proven to be the better of the two dogs because he ticked all the boxes. like stormer he was a good match dog, (not as good) but he was a great producer and he was proven game. the pit test is the hardest test of all.

[owasocourin]

Apparently Gameness is an ellusive trait only pocessed by the pit bull and the odd stafford of yester year. To mix with other breeds would dilute, sorry destroy the game gene. So which of the breeds that made the pit dog originally gave the game gene in such abundance that it overcame the influx of the new breed. Was it the Terrier or the Bull dog, and if such a dilution via cross breeding was possible then, why would it not be that the APBT would not have other mix's of sturdy ancestory. Just a thought

[oldetyme]

good question mate, i can't see how either would have had the gameness required for the pit, some how it seems to be the blending of the two and the test of the pit itself which by way of rigorous testing , selective breeding and hard culling gave rise to the final product!! and it worked. obviously the two foundation breeds carried more in the way of gameness than hounds or retrievers would have. hard testing, selective breeding and hard culling would have shaped the final product.

[oldetyme]

by blending the two foundation breeds they not only improved the gameness but also improved many other things such as the bite, the bulldog bite was to grip and pull, the terrier bite was to shake and worry, and now the bull n terrier had all these qualities, giving a more devastating bite than either of the two foundation breeds. there were many other attributes that were improved by blending the bulldog with the terrier i.e. like the ability to both attack and defend.

[Cage]

I think alot of pitbull folk forget that aswell as Game bull terriers being taken over to America from Europe so were farm utility bulldogs, it's inevetable that they were crossed at some point for size and performance benefits both for farm and the pit and they still are today.

[Cage]

Dogs like these!!

This bulldog is from America 1860

This is an AB present day in England.

[relic]

you had a lot of different Europeans not just the British with their types of fighting and holding dogs going to the USA in them days so who really knows wot went in to the pit bulls back then. some must of put hound if needed for there work or going back to working type holding bull dogs or different mastiffs breeds if they worked they got bred from in them days as still today one mate has been hog hunting in the deep south with the red necks and from the pics that he tuck a hell of a lot of the hounds had pit bull in them not a lot of am bull dog-but as time went on i would say that they bred top pit to top pit for the pit for a long time now. now all over the world the pit bulls are being put back to a lot of different bull/mastiff breeds in programs as a half cross or 3/4 for me the right pit bull is one of or if not the best breed in the world and all of the rest of the breeds that i admire the most have had game pit bulls put back or been used to reconstruct the breed.

[terrierboy]

i'm leaning more towards the old pit dog X with mountain cur, there's not much evidence about this, but the temperament and tenacity of this breed was highly appreciated by settlers in america. the size and type of pits flactuates a lot from new england where their first came and the south were they are believed to had been crossed with other(s) breed(s). Old southerners would even tell you that their ancestors crossed pitbull dogs with english whites, southern whites, old southern whites, hill bulls or simply how they call'em nowadays; american bulldogs. dont quote me on this as i just enjoy researching the history of bull breeds

www.puppiesanddogsforsale.com/images/Breed_Examples/BlackMouthCur.jpg
www.dogbreedinfo.com/images4/MountainCurRon.jpg
www.unitedmountaincurassociation.com/Sherlock%20bench%20closeup.jpg
blackgolddogfood.com/images/customerdogs/DSC00474.JPG


Many terrier-type Curs were brought over with immigrants from Europe to America and mated with the native curs. This uncertain, rather sordid combination of canine produced an off-beat Cur able to adjust to the ways of life of the pioneers and the Indians. This historic Ohio River Valley prowler is believed to possess a whiff of the Indian Cur's genetic smoke, in addition to the influence of hounds and herders. He is used mainly as a tree or bay dog, but many are superb trailers as well. They originated at the time the United States was new and were particularly common in the Ohio River Valley. As frontiersmen and their entire families moved to open the West, their Cur Dogs accompanied them. Those that favor this breed say that besides the herding dog trait, there is a dash of "Indian Cur" (a parish type dog) in their makeup. Although called "mountain" because of their particular advantage to settlers in wooded, wild areas, they did just as well in swampy or dry areas, or other places with harsh living conditions. The book "Old Yeller" - about a boy growing up in frontier Texas and a dog for which the book is named, is a typical Mountain Cur (unlike the movie, which starred a dog of Lab type). In the book, Old Yeller is a short-haired, yellow bobtailed dog that hunts and trees, isn't afraid to fight a full-grown bear when it is threatened, and naturally goes for the nose when he faces a mad bull. The author is very explicit in describing this old-fashioned breed and its use to the pioneer. The name "Mountain Cur" is never mentioned in the book, however in those days, the breed really didn't have a name or an individual identity. The Mountain Cur dogs are slowly being sorted into individual types. The Treeing Tennessee Brindle, Stephens Stock, and the Mountain View Cur use to all be the same breed, but these have achieved enough individual identity to justify their own registering groups. By the end of the last war, there were very few of these old time Mountain Curs left. A few die-hard owners still maintained some stock in isolated swamps and remote mountain regions of the southeast. They are the oldest recognized cur breed and are enjoying a resent rebirth, similar to the other Cur breeds. The Original Mountain Cur Breeders Association has registered the breed since the late 50’s.
The Cur dog was the first true, distinct, American purebred. Earliest lines can be traced all over the Southern United States, particularly near the Appalachian Mountains. Settlers brought European dogs along with them, primarily hunting Hounds and Terriers. These dogs were crossed with native dogs, most notable of which was the Indian Cur, and this unique type came to existence. Hounds brought excellent scenting ability, and a loud, clear bay (although most Curs are known for their chop, and Hounds have a distinct bawl). Terrier blood added grit and tenacity no other type of dog could compare. Both the Hound and the Terrier are still to this day unmatched in quality compared to other dogs. While not considered a true Shepherd type, the Cur also shared Shepherd ancestry--early Beauceron on, in particular. Though not a traditional herder, the Cur was used for rounding up rough stock. Texas Longhorn Cattle and feral pigs were what this dog had to handle--not regular cattle or sheep.

The modern Cur is still a traditional hunting dog. Seen still almost exclusively in the South, this farm dog is second to none. It can handle anything from squirrels and raccoons to bears, boar, and bulls. Also, it is a first-class treeing dog. They are also above-average trackers; although they are not as efficient as the Coonhound nor are they vocal on trail. Curs are also highly possessive and protective of their family--a trait seen in Terriers and often Shepherds, but certainly not Hounds. Therefore, they make excellent protection dogs. However, it is necessary to note that this breed is generally inappropriate as a pet. Although friendly and loyal, like most hunting dogs the Mountain Cur’s true nature is in the hunt, not in the home. Many people introduce other breeds into the Mountain Cur; however, with the exception of the Hound’s fine nose, this is not necessary as a good Cur should have all the right hunting dog traits. It has found recognition within its own registry, the OMCBA, or Original Mountain Cur Breeder’s Association, and the United Kennel Club.

[owasocourin]

Cheers Terrier boy

[andyh]

I also think ebt was put in the mix back in the day it was best to best and the old pit dog/staff type and ebt where the best around so would of been crossed.

[david1963]

i;m confused and going with oldetyme history theory not saying the other crossed it happen

[david1963]

all my pitbulls look terrier type my bloodline is boudreau