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Post by neilsherlock on Nov 15, 2010 21:25:26 GMT
having fun may well be your and many others idea of what its about but for a few others we would love to see more. Trying to see the real athletic qualities of these animals. 2 times round a field is not enough. I think Ian is right in leaving this scene alone. I will just test my dogs on my own or with anyone who wishes to join me from now on.
Chow
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Post by oldetyme on Nov 16, 2010 13:36:58 GMT
i agree, the best way to test your dog is to come up with your own scale and take them out into the field and if a dog surpases that level, then that is a good dog regardless of what anyone else thinks! i came upon this scene with much interest but having witnessed some of the goings on, i am now pleased to say i am out of it, most of all i will miss working my dogs and getting them fit n ready!
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Post by dog on Nov 16, 2010 13:41:11 GMT
I think we all have (or at least should have) a decent understanding of our Dog's abilities/shortfalls but it's good to get an understanding of what other people's Dogs are like and how our Dogs stack up against them.
Getting agreement on how they should be tested is the tricky bit.
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Post by oldetyme on Nov 16, 2010 13:48:29 GMT
whats the difference between a working dog and a sporting dog!!!!! and yes you can have fun and give a dog a fulfilling life but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be more than just fun! isn't a Labrador both a working and sporting dog?
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Post by oldetyme on Nov 16, 2010 14:03:40 GMT
owen i agree with what you say but its all the b.s. that goes with it and spoils everything, i have seen it happen over and over again, its always the human eliment that spoils things! i think the folks who get most out of their dogs and true worth are those that take there dogs out into the field like the lurcherman.
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Post by dog on Nov 16, 2010 16:11:00 GMT
True, it's shocking the depths some people will stoop to for the sake of their ego. I think that's the same in alot of areas and the hunting scene is as bad as any other TBH.
There must a way to cut through the crap though.
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Post by clueless on Nov 16, 2010 19:46:15 GMT
having fun may well be your and many others idea of what its about but for a few others we would love to see more. Trying to see the real athletic qualities of these animals. 2 times round a field is not enough. I think Ian is right in leaving this scene alone. I will just test my dogs on my own or with anyone who wishes to join me from now on. Chow Thank fook for that chow.......
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Post by Vincent on Nov 16, 2010 20:31:18 GMT
whats the difference between a working dog and a sporting dog!!!!! and yes you can have fun and give a dog a fulfilling life but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be more than just fun! isn't a Labrador both a working and sporting dog? Thats a good point and liek many definitions is up to personal opinions, I'd say that the difference is that there is profit from a working dog, be it money, food or catching criminals and the likes. SPorting i would say is what alot of people on here do training and competing with there dogs in order to see what their dogs are capable of. On a side note, at which point is pushing a dog to far? athletic trials on dogs have never really been that extensive as far as I know (point me in another direction if you know otherwise) so how far are people willing to take it and where does it ethically become a bad thing. One could argue that pit fighting is the ultimate test but, ethicallly, it is a disgusting practise. Now don't mean to compare things such as long distance running or rabbiting etc. to pit fighting and I do find pushing these dogs to some extent is interesting but some of these trials and over doing training could cause harm to a dog. (hope I make sense and am not rambling)
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Post by oldetyme on Nov 20, 2010 17:21:07 GMT
pit fighting is considered sport and is run for profit! i dont see why there should be a problem because people want to take things more seriously, it just becomes a problem when small minded fookers! spoil things. owen, not quite sure how you can cut the crap, it only takes one or two ego maniacs to upset the apple-cart. let me know if you or neil get something going, i would be more than willing to help out if needed.
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Post by dog on Nov 20, 2010 17:55:56 GMT
We're still trying to work something out and as usual that involves Neil and I doing some arguing but we've come up with what could be an interesting idea...just needs a bit of fine tuning, testing, money and a bit more arguing. Whatever happens we'll let you know.
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Post by oldetyme on Nov 21, 2010 11:38:31 GMT
Vincent, part of your definition of a working or sporting dog i agree with but because some folks want to take it more seriously doesn't make it less sporting as they are still competing with others which by my definition and yours makes it sport!!! for me if anything spoils things, its not because people take things seriously, its small minded people who come onto forums like these looking for trouble and bad mouthing folks or getting personal. i know a few folks who take this sport seriously and they are good sports who take the time and effort to train their dogs well but they don't feel the need to come on forums and bad mouth people, like some do. for me personally, if I'm going to put 100% of my time and effort into getting a dog "fit n ready" then it becomes a bit more than just fun, if you turn up to an event with your dog in average or fair condition and just want to have a go then fair enough "its just for fun" but spending 8wks pounding the streets in all weathers takes it to another level. p.s. there's no reason why you can't take it seriously and still have fun.
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Post by Vincent on Nov 21, 2010 17:27:02 GMT
I agree with what your saying, I dunno if I'm clear but my concerns are probably 2 things.
The first is that owners can go into the conditioning and training parts blind and misguided. Which can cause unecessary pain or discomfort to the dog. I think it wise to try and learn about good nutrician, rest days etc. before training. Also I think it is difficult to be able guage when dogs rest days are if their in discomfort, if their nutrician is right and if you exercising the right muscle groups etc. because man and dog are very different. So my main concern is health i guess and although i like seeing a dog in great condition doing well I'm always a little worried about the dogs health especially if i don't know the owners i worry how the dogs have got liek that.
My second concern would be that some people are willing to push their dog to its limits yet do the bare minimum or nothing themselves. Obviously i understand a person can't do as much as a dog and some people have reasons which mean they can't be active.
Am I still not making sense it's not that i think working and training dogs is bad it's health and peoples commitment.
Also i agree about some people spoiling things. Especially groups of people bickering with each other over seemingly nothing. I see no reason why as dog lovers people can't appreciate other peoples efforts.
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Post by neilsherlock on Nov 21, 2010 21:04:23 GMT
I see what your saying Vincent, but we will always have those who will not educate themselves. That does not mean those that do should stop pushing forwards with our dogs.
there will be a 10 mile ride for anyone who has a bike and dog and who wants to come on the last saturday in the weekend of Jan on Chobham common, Surrey. Colmenating at the pub!
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Post by oldetyme on Nov 21, 2010 22:24:26 GMT
vincent, i take all your points made, thats one of the good things about forums like these that people can learn. when i started training my dogs i knew very little about nutrician, cardio and such like, i still dont! i just stuck to the basics of good food, exercise and proper rest, i think it was a lot harder for me than it was for the dogs, i have some health issues which make it hard for me to complete ten mile walks but to ballance it out i also have a love for the countryside aswell as dogs, so i was never happier than when working my dogs and that gave me the push to go through the pain.
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mike7
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Post by mike7 on Nov 22, 2010 21:16:50 GMT
Hello Neil/Owen. what sort of time would you expect a Staffie Type of dog to run the first 5 miles and then the last 5 miles in? I would love to join you but its a wee bit far from north of Inverness! Cheers,Mike
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Post by neilsherlock on Nov 22, 2010 21:22:47 GMT
i timed mine in trot the other day over 5 miles and that was 45 mins, can go quiete a bit quicker though
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Post by dog on Nov 22, 2010 22:00:46 GMT
I've actually done 5 miles with my Bull terrier in under 15 minutes but that's really going for it and he's very tall and slight in comparison to the average Stafford (22.5" at the shoulder and 60lbs).
For 5 miles (Depending on build and size) I reckon 45 minutes would be a good time as part of an exercise regime for a fit Dog, 30 minutes would be pushing the Dog quite hard and anywhere near 20 minutes would be about the fastest time possible. The fastest Pointers and Huskies in the world will do it in about 12.5 minutes.
Ideally you want to do the first 5 and second five in about the same time, that way you're getting the best overall time possible for your Dog.
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mike7
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Post by mike7 on Nov 23, 2010 10:29:03 GMT
Hello. My dog is 18months now and has only started running and I don't push him hard, and won't do so until he is 2 years old. Bull terrier running at 20mph for a straight 15 minutes is well impressive.My staff will be approx 20/22 inches so should be ball park comparible. I think he would well struggle to run 5 miles at 10mph average. To be fair on him,for now he runs it without breaking sweat at 6mph average. time will tell if we can build him up to it.A good shorter term target would be 10mph average. With winter here I wont be running him too much. Out in the fields will have to do. As to what you guys are proposing, it would be 'fun' to see how many other dogs could do this and in what times. If distance is an obstruction to meeting up in person, which in my case it deffo is,maybe we can set an internet challenge later in 2011? Just to compare dog fitness levels and stamina.I can easily find tracks and quiet roads where I am , the only issue is finding something fairly flat! thanks alot for the info as it is something to try to aim for. Good luck with the run! cheers,Mike
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Post by neilsherlock on Nov 23, 2010 20:04:57 GMT
if traveling cross country i think gps watches will give a definate distance. Im up for your proposal mike, look forward to it.
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mike7
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Post by mike7 on Nov 23, 2010 21:59:01 GMT
Hi Neil. would deffo fancy a test for me and Arthur.We're only beginners mind. Well the dog is! I use a cycle computer on the mountain bike. Accurate enough for me, but as you say GPS is better if available. If you know any online info on dog training for this let me know, as I would only be able to fall back on my human training knowledge. Had other dogs that I ran with before but never 10miles and nowhere near as fast as 20mph average! cheers,Mike
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Post by neilsherlock on Nov 23, 2010 22:08:10 GMT
there are huskie books but i use a human endurance training books for info, cheap enough off amazon mike
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mike7
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Post by mike7 on Nov 27, 2010 18:22:29 GMT
Hello, I was looking for info about 10mile runs etc and found this. This is based on a 9.3 mile undulating course in Scotland with some of the UK's best husky racing teams involved.I cut and pasted the following:
"Fresh from training in Europe, Michael McRae’s outstanding four dog Siberian Husky team set the standard for the lightweight rig teams, covering the long trail in just over 42 minutes, showing the level of excellence of some of the purebred teams in the UK."
The fastest team are semi-professional. The rest of the times were all between 1hour 3mins and 1.5Hours. Therefore, I would be trying to do 10 miles in around 1.5hours after a few months of conditioning. cheers,Mike
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Post by dog on Nov 27, 2010 23:41:33 GMT
That's seriously impressive stuff, especially when you consider that there is very little input from the musher with a rig so each of those Dogs is pulling at least half it's bodyweight, probably nearer it's whole bodyweight and they're Siberian Huskies too which were originally bred for endurance, reliability and toughness rather than speed.
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Post by oldetyme on Nov 28, 2010 10:32:17 GMT
i thought it was the malamute which was bred for endurance and the siberian was bred for speed!!!!
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Post by dog on Nov 28, 2010 11:16:05 GMT
Siberians are selectively bred for speed these days but they're from pure bred stock that were originally bred to be reliable workhorses, they never intended to race them originally.
The real speedsters are Alaskan Huskies which are a mix of Husky, Pointer, Dalmation, German Shepherds, Running Dogs and whatever breed they feel might make them faster. Siberians just can't compete with them for outright speed.
The strange thing is that Husky racing in this country is almost entirely Siberian Husky only, Alaskans are very rare and aren't eligible for most races races because they're cross breeds. In countries where racing is a huge sport with huge prizes (like Canada) there are no restrictions on breed and so they almost entirely use Alaskan Huskies.
There are actually more than a dozen or so types of sled Dog, the Euro hound is also really quick, it's basically an Alaskan with a heavy dose of Pointer. They're not suited to really cold conditions.
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Post by neilsherlock on Nov 28, 2010 14:10:29 GMT
Malamutes are more of a draft animal, straight legged behind, not condusive to endurance
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Post by oldetyme on Nov 28, 2010 15:54:00 GMT
but comparing the pure bred siberian with the malamute, the siberian is considered more for speed and the malamute for endurance.... i have seen programs on tele where they cross breed for better performance, not very fancy looking but much better at doing the job.
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Post by southern-staffords on Nov 28, 2010 16:11:09 GMT
iron dog is not a test, its twice round a field, 10 miles is a diffrent matter and the dog will not be held back by the rider. Big diffrence mate If you do not think it's a test m8, ask the people who have rode to what they think of only 2 laps, nearly all dogs will do 10 miles no bother but can the owner. Digga's done 5mile in 37min, top speed 31mph Good idea, but finding somewhere practical will be a different matter, one where you have a complete circuit with NO dogs, NO livestock & NO obstacles
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Post by neilsherlock on Nov 28, 2010 16:33:09 GMT
it may of been a test for the owner, but if we asked the dogs if they were tested we would have another answer m8. Why do we need a sterile eviroment to do it? i have a route but you may have to pass people and dogs. Come along last weekend in jan m8 and bring ya bike. No comp, just a fun ride and see the route. We can have a pint after.
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mike7
New Member
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Post by mike7 on Nov 28, 2010 16:59:42 GMT
Hi. plenty of wide open spaces around me. We can go coast to coast ( 60miles) all off road- and probably see nobody! Bit of a drive though,especially as I have 8 inches of snow outside and more falling as I type!
cheers,Mike
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