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Post by ianhurley on Jun 14, 2009 22:30:25 GMT
an old cocker's expression. "fine feathers do not necessarily make fine birds".
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Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jun 15, 2009 15:09:55 GMT
Very true, but you can have the farstest train in the world but if the nuts and bolts aint holding it together properly, sooner or later it will come off the tracks!. Thats not an old saying i just made that up!
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Post by martinl on Jun 15, 2009 15:28:50 GMT
see i was going to mention the shoulders thing but didnt know how to back it up..
and i'm also confused about that explanatory picture? which is right.. 90d or 45d? and the left bit or the right bit?
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Post by dawn on Jun 15, 2009 15:45:48 GMT
great pics of some stunning dogs
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Post by ianhurley on Jun 15, 2009 16:47:08 GMT
if that train has been chuggin along for years then dont fix it. ;D
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Post by ianhurley on Jun 15, 2009 16:53:33 GMT
Neil i think we would both agree that given the choice we would like to have a line of proven game and anatomically sound dogs! but in that game it just doesn't work like that and i come back to the point that if someone were to try and do so then gameness and other important traits would suffer and they wouldn't have a great record. thats fact. you could focus on trying to breed an anatomically sound line for the pit but chances are they would all be rank curs.
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Post by ianhurley on Jun 15, 2009 17:11:05 GMT
gameness is the most unnatural trait known to man, it goes against everything nature intended. trying to breed dogs for this trait is akin to pissin in the wind so to speak. the breeder has to take over the roll of god and re-write the laws of nature, even when breeding for gameness alone will still produce more curs than game dogs so what chances have you got when you try to bring in other points!! reason, because your always fighting against mother nature.
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Post by ianhurley on Jun 15, 2009 17:15:51 GMT
well that answers that question, i did say he lived for a long time! which sort of disproves all your arguments. i call the next case your honour.
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Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jun 15, 2009 18:27:32 GMT
i never said he couldnt live long, i work on and with working animals and i can tell you 100% that if an animal is not constructed correctly its 'working life' is reduced dramatically, its nonsense to suggest otherwise. The faults may not be so dertrimental to effect the animal immediatlly but they will eventually effect it. Dont think you disproved bugger all your honour !
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Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jun 15, 2009 18:58:46 GMT
Ian i agree, we would all like a dog with superb construction and high drive and confidence, (not gameness for me). As there's no need for gameness in todays day and age construction must have equal importance. We owe it to the dogs to give them every chance of an uninterupted(due to lameness)athletic lifestyle.
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Post by ianhurley on Jun 15, 2009 21:33:09 GMT
al brown was an old time pit bull fancier from America and here is his definition of gameness. (game- plucky, unyielding in manner, ready and willing) i think these are still very much desirable traits and harry showed this last week. it may not be an aggressive type of courage but then courage comes in many forms. i.e, theres a big difference between game fighting dogs, cocks, working terriers and even races horses are often referred to as being game and courageous. how many times have you heard a trainer, owner or rider say he ran on gamely or he's a courageous horse!! now let not anyone twist my words, I'm not saying because harry proved his gameness at weight pulling that i consider him game in the same sense as a fighting dog. i must make that clear, although i would say theres some over-lap to some greater or lesser degree.
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Post by ianhurley on Jun 15, 2009 22:08:34 GMT
i never said he couldnt live long, i work on and with working animals and i can tell you 100% that if an animal is not constructed correctly its 'working life' is reduced dramatically, its nonsense to suggest otherwise. The faults may not be so dertrimental to effect the animal immediatlly but they will eventually effect it. Dont think you disproved bugger all your honour ! i would agree with that to a degree but a pit-dog man would say that every fight takes something out of a dog much more than some physical fault. so it wouldn't be relevant in the greater scheme of things, especially if he goes on to live a long life afterwards like milo.
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Post by dog on Jun 15, 2009 22:33:00 GMT
I should point out that there are some very nicely put together dogs there. I also fully respect any dog that can endure such an experience and come out the other side and I understand what your saying about gameness being the highest priority but I would hate to think that inexperienced people (and breeders!) would look at some of the conformational faults there and believe that they are desirable because they happened to be attached to a succesful pit dog. Some of those dogs succeeded in spite of those faults, not because of them.
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Post by quinlent on Jun 15, 2009 22:48:06 GMT
i'm just playing devil's advocate here. i agree that balance and good comformation are important but these guys who owned these dogs would say to you that if you are going to put down good money then you better focus on things like gameness, wind and if you can get good bite without losing the former then all well and good but the moment you start trying to get good feet or good tail carriage then you will be on to a loser and wouldn't last five minutes in the game. how on earth is it possible that up till today there are people preaching the big old bull shit might it be from the the devils point of view i'd prefer to call it the devils arse you are defending. a few questions to the advocate! 1 why is it that conformation is sepperated from wind? isn't it that when conformation is correct a dog can make more steps on that same wind? That when there is no compesation nescesary in movement no energy is wasted? isn't wind all about conformation? How can a bad constructed mouth ever bite hard? What about high tail low courage there is more in the tail then just the looks of it. in my opinion these dogs suffer serious abuse and people make up a lot of bullshit story's to cover it up. or to convince people at least to buy from them. It is just a story of a bunch of bullshitters that don't have the quality to breed a descent dog or even take care of it in a proper manner. it is wrong to keep looking at pictures like that it is better to post pictures of today's dogs. i travel everywhere and last iron dog i 've seen two black brindle girls ten times better then the ones on these sites better post pictures of them ! some good dogs to compare: Cheers! Marco
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Post by mickthetrick on Jun 16, 2009 0:07:06 GMT
well Ive just read that Marco and to me you are a "cock" of the highest order!!! if you think a dog that is overshot or undershot cannot bite and bite hard you obviously haven't much experience in working them! i hope one day you have the pleasure of seeing a true working Stafford then it might change your one-sided views. Ive nothing more to say on this
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Post by martinl on Jun 16, 2009 7:52:11 GMT
^ Hahaha...
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Post by quinlent on Jun 16, 2009 8:48:19 GMT
well Ive just read that Marco and to me you are a "cock" of the highest order!!! if you think a dog that is overshot or undershot cannot bite and bite hard you obviously haven't much experience in working them! i hope one day you have the pleasure of seeing a true working Stafford then it might change your one-sided views. Ive nothing more to say on this Jolly fun mate @ least in the highest order in something thank you very much for your qualification, it is apreciated! Your reply on the other hand can be called rather typical. I have noticed you are a bit upset and that is allright and a good start for a good conversation and teaching. my questions to you are. where in my reply have i made the comment that undershot or overshot can not bite or bite hard? what about week teeth light bones inverging canines? Where have i given you the impression that i have never seen a good working Staffordshire Bull Terrier? and much more important how do you know? And ofcourse you come up with the bull shit that i ofcourse never had the experience of working them - how do you know? and again ofcourse i have a one sided view and you are sugesting to be open minded, then why are you not capable in replying to me and prove me wrong with evidence? And ofcourse you end your intelligent reply with the message that you have nothing more to say on this and i think that is absolutely the most intelligent line in your reply and i think indeed it is wisdom not to speak much more of this absolute bullshit. so back to the lesson! The questions are simple: How can a wrong construction provide more wind then a good construction? and what is the advantage of misconformation in a jaw towards a good conformation? please tell me 'cause i am eager to learn from an experienced person like you. cheers - Marco
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Post by dog on Jun 16, 2009 10:22:52 GMT
Please keep it civil, thanks.
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Post by quinlent on Jun 16, 2009 10:48:01 GMT
just give me a sign and i'll delete my reply's. No problem for me it is not my intention to start a battle here but i am willing to wash some ears Cheers - Marco
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Post by dog on Jun 16, 2009 10:55:04 GMT
I don't want anything to be deleted, there's no big problem here. Carry on but please keep it civil, thanks.
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nikki
Full Member
Posts: 120
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Post by nikki on Jun 16, 2009 11:13:40 GMT
Personally to me, those dogs are too fit. I don't like seeing them like that.
Looking at Quinlent's photo's, thse to me, are perfect looking dogs. They have a nice waste,nice muscle tone and look healthy.
Some dogs, like Big Red, look ill to me, like it hasn't had a good meal. Seeing ribs like that, I just do not like, bt it is down to personal preference. I hate looking at obese dogs, but I also don't like seeing dogs that are too fit.
I am happy with both of my dogs, how they look, their weight and their fittness.
x
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Post by dog on Jun 16, 2009 11:23:56 GMT
I see what you're say Nikki but I don't think you can really judge how fit a dog is from photos, a dog can be too thin for sure but I don't think it can be too fit.
Part of the problem these days is that people make their dogs thin in order to get them to look fit, it's the lazy way and can be very damaging to the dog. I like to see a dog as fit as possible but I hate it when I see a dog that has been made too thin by people who think that stripping ever more weight off a dog will make it look or perform better. I have seen first hand that taking too much weight off a dog can seriously effect performance. That said, I like to keep my dog's weight to a minimum but it's a difficult thing to judge and I've seen loads of people get it wrong, some very badly.
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Post by cadgi on Jun 16, 2009 14:39:03 GMT
J.M.O. but i would say alot of it has to be down to the purpose/usage of the dog in question.year's ago the main use for the stafford was the pit/baiting, today stafford's are used alot more in agility and athletic sport's,and as such the owner's requiment's have changed making conformation more of a priority today, plus modern life meen's the average human goes more on the look of said object than they do on the function/usefulness of the object. i personaly think a dog with the right making's between the ear's will overcome most physical short coming's,but a dog with perfect conformation and no drive is no better than an ornament. A.T.B......Lyndon.
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Post by quinlent on Jun 16, 2009 15:12:45 GMT
J.M.O. but i would say alot of it has to be down to the purpose/usage of the dog in question.year's ago the main use for the stafford was the pit/baiting, today stafford's are used alot more in agility and athletic sport's,and as such the owner's requiment's have changed making conformation more of a priority today, plus modern life meen's the average human goes more on the look of said object than they do on the function/usefulness of the object. i personaly think a dog with the right making's between the ear's will overcome most physical short coming's,but a dog with perfect conformation and no drive is no better than an ornament. A.T.B......Lyndon. I understand your first part and as time the breeds have changed i think it is unfair to compare imediatly with the no drive at all situation. what if we do the same and we turn it around it has a lot of drive but no legs then it is not even an ornament. why is it that it is allways drawn in to extremes. there is no dog with no drive it simply does not exist it wouldn't drink their mothers milk. It is much more interesting to know how character is inherited. does anybody here know? What factor in breeding is important for the inheritance of typical behaviour? how do you breed in to certain quality's to maintain what you have got. for me those sites show pictures with a story and it is not possible at all to check the value and the truth of those story's neither do you see the mans imagination before the story is made up. But what can be seen is that those socalled fearless game dogs look more like a bunch of ill wrecks. If i have the choice and i do! i'll choose a spirited well conformated dog and i'll let it be a fit and healthy part of today's society. my personal translation of the word gameness is human doubt Cheers - Marco
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Post by frank on Jun 16, 2009 16:23:52 GMT
well Ive just read that Marco and to me you are a "cock" of the highest order!!! if you think a dog that is overshot or undershot cannot bite and bite hard you obviously haven't much experience in working them! i hope one day you have the pleasure of seeing a true working Stafford then it might change your one-sided views. Ive nothing more to say on this Jolly fun mate @ least in the highest order in something thank you very much for your qualification, it is apreciated! Your reply on the other hand can be called rather typical. I have noticed you are a bit upset and that is allright and a good start for a good conversation and teaching. my questions to you are. where in my reply have i made the comment that undershot or overshot can not bite or bite hard? what about week teeth light bones inverging canines? Where have i given you the impression that i have never seen a good working Staffordshire Bull Terrier? and much more important how do you know? And ofcourse you come up with the bull shit that i ofcourse never had the experience of working them - how do you know? and again ofcourse i have a one sided view and you are sugesting to be open minded, then why are you not capable in replying to me and prove me wrong with evidence? And ofcourse you end your intelligent reply with the message that you have nothing more to say on this and i think that is absolutely the most intelligent line in your reply and i think indeed it is wisdom not to speak much more of this absolute bullshit. so back to the lesson! The questions are simple: How can a wrong construction provide more wind then a good construction? and what is the advantage of misconformation in a jaw towards a good conformation? please tell me 'cause i am eager to learn from an experienced person like you. cheers - Marco Sorry m8, but have known Milo and a good daughter of him, and would not trade him for the ones on your pics if I had the choice, although I agree that there where better built dogs than him. Gameness first was the motto, because without this they where worthless. If they had the chance to get both correct, gameness including a great built they would have it. But as all things in life, you can not always have it all. I have seen a fair amount of those dogs on that site, and must say that what I saw in a lot of those eyes I do not see that a lot anymore. Yes, the good old days........ But if we talk about construction, I have seen lately some nice well built animals, also some of yours that I like. It can be the construction or the spirit(that little red bitch). But those old dogs where something special, and the selection to get something like that was tough.
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Post by frank on Jun 16, 2009 16:25:32 GMT
al brown was an old time pit bull fancier from America and here is his definition of gameness. (game- plucky, unyielding in manner, ready and willing) i think these are still very much desirable traits and harry showed this last week. it may not be an aggressive type of courage but then courage comes in many forms. i.e, theres a big difference between game fighting dogs, cocks, working terriers and even races horses are often referred to as being game and courageous. how many times have you heard a trainer, owner or rider say he ran on gamely or he's a courageous horse!! now let not anyone twist my words, I'm not saying because harry proved his gameness at weight pulling that i consider him game in the same sense as a fighting dog. i must make that clear, although i would say theres some over-lap to some greater or lesser degree. All Brown also owned Staffords, and there are even pics in the T.L. Williams books of him and Howard Heinzel with Staffords.
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Post by frank on Jun 16, 2009 16:27:21 GMT
Personally to me, those dogs are too fit. I don't like seeing them like that. Looking at Quinlent's photo's, thse to me, are perfect looking dogs. They have a nice waste,nice muscle tone and look healthy. Some dogs, like Big Red, look ill to me, like it hasn't had a good meal. Seeing ribs like that, I just do not like, bt it is down to personal preference. I hate looking at obese dogs, but I also don't like seeing dogs that are too fit. I am happy with both of my dogs, how they look, their weight and their fittness. x A dog can never be too fit. A dog can be too fat or too thin, but never too fit
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Post by ianhurley on Jun 16, 2009 16:34:05 GMT
Marco, Marco, what can i say!! firstly why do you need to swear so much in order to get your point across? its not necessary. secondly you should re- read your replys again because you did clearly state that a dog with a badly constructed mouth would not be able to bite hard. and to suggest these dogs achievements are just made up stories shows your ignorance, you clearly no nothing about the history of these dogs. i personally always like to keep an open mind in the dog game as i think it allows me to take in all the facts! just because i may disagree with someones views doesn't mean i have to respond in an aggressive manner!!
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Post by ianhurley on Jun 16, 2009 16:38:17 GMT
ah frank, thats better, back to intelligent conversation!
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Post by frank on Jun 16, 2009 16:49:28 GMT
Milo at one of the last Liverpool shows. Must be somewhere 92? Milo's mother Blue Bell
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