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Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jun 17, 2009 8:02:16 GMT
If they are detrimental in structure then over long periods of hard work they they will unfortunatly A racehorse yes, earlier then a dog. But as stated again we are talking about those old dogs now or they could barely stand on their feet. I dont think it would be that they could not stand on there feet, but they could not be worked as hard as a dog with the correct construction and would surely suffer lameness through out there carrier if they were worked that hard. Its bio mechanics, pullies and levers. It may be the short length of the carrier may allow these dogs achieve they reps but a longer working carrier would impress me greater
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Post by frank on Jun 17, 2009 8:28:32 GMT
A racehorse yes, earlier then a dog. But as stated again we are talking about those old dogs now or they could barely stand on their feet. I dont think it would be that they could not stand on there feet, but they could not be worked as hard as a dog with the correct construction and would surely suffer lameness through out there carrier if they were worked that hard. Its bio mechanics, pullies and levers. It may be the short length of the carrier may allow these dogs achieve they reps but a longer working carrier would impress me greater There are numberous Pitbulls that didn't have that perfect physique that made the grade. Overbuilt, undershot(loads of them, and amongst them some of the hardest biters), long toes, weak patterns, too long in the back etc etc. And some of them with long careers in the square, where others where pulled back for breeding purposes. Gamedogs is no quantum physics, its just about heart, and then comes built. We on the other hand can not do better these days then to breed a dog with as good a conformation as possible, as the alternative is not there anymore(besides the fact that most of our dogs would quit)
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Post by frank on Jun 17, 2009 8:32:21 GMT
If we look at a greyhound, we HAVE to strive for that perfect physique, as this is needed to run those races time after time. These dogs are more a victim of their built if not well constructed then a gamedog, although a gamedog also needs a reasonable good physique to win that match, only they do not have to be perfect. They can afford themselfs more faults then the Grey. Only thing they can never afford, and that is lack of heart!
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Post by quinlent on Jun 17, 2009 8:35:24 GMT
Here you make the biggest fault ever m8! And this is the whole point why we can not agree on this matter. You have the wrong idea about the gamedog. You are absolutely right from your point of view Frank. but bring me a so called born game dog and i turn it in to a poodle for you. No problem! When i speak to old people from the breeds they say how fearless and ready their dogs where in the past. But when i look at photo's of the first shows i can assure you that when your dogs and mine are this close to eachother we'd had problem! i had a few pitbulls back in 1989 Frank one i found in a container left for death after a dog fight. i cleaned him up and took care of him. This dog was as i have learned in later life one hell of a fighter. and brought me in a lot of situations i loved him till his death at 12 years of age. i have owned a pitbull early ninety's here in Holland out of a combination you have discribed he evantually attacked a train fearlessly! I have owned all those quality's you described so carefully in your explanation of gameness. And there is just one thing to get it back we just have to go back to the pit. and exactly that is where we don't understand eachother i believe that a dog can only become game when he is trained and lived a tough puppy time and then actually entered a Pit and try's to survive. So he depents on humans to make him game. When that dog is in my home that same dog might be the best therapydog and the worst fighting dog if i wanted to. Bring me any dog and i'll prove it! Cheers Mate Marco
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Post by martinl on Jun 17, 2009 8:59:49 GMT
Great Posts.. really good read but bring me a so called born game dog and i turn it in to a poodle for you. No problem! Ive Got a born game dog for you to poodlize... might take a wieght of my shoulders.. he slipped his collar last nite and hit a bullmastiff and rolled it lol.. not bad(if thats what i was interested in) for a 20lb dog lol
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Post by quinlent on Jun 17, 2009 9:07:23 GMT
can you consider a dog that has not proven himselves to be game? No! You can suggest but you'll never know. That is why i earlier in this nice conversation said Gameness to me is a reflection of human doubt.
it works the same the opposite way frank. You can't say there are no more game staffords unless you put them all to the test! And exactly that reflects the myth of gameness! a dog is proven game which means he took away human doubt by his actions.
Now the gamedogs have entered a new time which they have to survive and since a dog can become old now conformation is more important then ever and a big responsability.
great conversation mate!
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Post by frank on Jun 17, 2009 9:07:41 GMT
but bring me a so called born game dog and i turn it in to a poodle for you. No problem! Again, this already shows that you do not understand the matter. You might train dogs for a long time, but for just as long as you did that I studied gamedogs. People who have been around gamedogs or studied them will know I am right.When i speak to old people from the breeds they say how fearless and ready their dogs where in the past. But when i look at photo's of the first shows i can assure you that when your dogs and mine are this close to eachother we'd had problem! Says nothing, there are examples of gamedogs of the same breed that where living together and where together in a doghouse, but both made Champion. Agression is not gameness!i had a few pitbulls back in 1989 Frank one i found in a container left for death after a dog fight. i cleaned him up and took care of him. This dog was as i have learned in later life one hell of a fighter. You only can say that if you have had that dog in the square. As we separate our dogs much too early to give such a value comment.i have owned a pitbull early ninety's here in Holland out of a combination you have discribed he evantually attacked a train fearlessly! But did he keep attacking that train even after it crushed him? That would be gameness!I have owned all those quality's you described so carefully in your explanation of gameness. Unless you have seen those dogs that you credit with those qualitys for a long time, you can not know that.And there is just one thing to get it back we just have to go back to the pit. and exactly that is where we don't understand eachother i believe that a dog can only become game when he is trained and lived a tough puppy time and then actually entered a Pit and try's to survive. So he depents on humans to make him game. And again this is the wrong assumption. This is why you do not understand me. Gameness is there or not. Broad up with poodles on a mansion or in a cellar under a house or whatever. It's there or it isn't. It's not manmade, and it is not dependable on people.When that dog is in my home that same dog might be the best therapydog and the worst fighting dog if i wanted to. Bring me any dog and i'll prove it! You do not have to prove that Marco, as it is not true, no doubt in my mind.Cheers Mate Marco Man, love this discussion
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Post by frank on Jun 17, 2009 9:09:22 GMT
Great Posts.. really good read but bring me a so called born game dog and i turn it in to a poodle for you. No problem! Ive Got a born game dog for you to poodlize... might take a wieght of my shoulders.. he slipped his collar last nite and hit a bullmastiff and rolled it lol.. not bad(if thats what i was interested in) for a 20lb dog lol But still you would not know or he was a game dog, as you only would know that if he was losing badly and still went over after separated.
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Post by martinl on Jun 17, 2009 9:14:05 GMT
frank.. he will do anything to get at another dog.. trust me.. if i let him.. he would fit anything and wouldnt stop til he wa dead or the other dog was dead.. imo
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Post by frank on Jun 17, 2009 9:16:19 GMT
can you consider a dog that has not proven himselves to be game? No! You can suggest but you'll never know. Agree it works the same the opposite way frank. You can't say there are no more game staffords unless you put them all to the test! AgreeNow the gamedogs have entered a new time which they have to survive and since a dog can become old now conformation is more important then ever and a big responsability. No, the gamedogs have not entered a new time, as generations of unproven stock will eventually make sure the gamedog is not amonst us anymore with maybe one or two exceptions in a hundred.great conversation mate! But have to agree that we as conformation breeders mainly(thats what we are mostly) this is much more important these days and have to be taken care of. But the gamedog with weak paterns(less perfect physique) will always have the preference of the real dogman.
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Post by quinlent on Jun 17, 2009 9:17:17 GMT
If we look at a greyhound, we HAVE to strive for that perfect physique, as this is needed to run those races time after time. These dogs are more a victim of their built if not well constructed then a gamedog, although a gamedog also needs a reasonable good physique to win that match, only they do not have to be perfect. They can afford themselfs more faults then the Grey. Only thing they can never afford, and that is lack of heart! This is an absolute truth Frank! and a good comparison Marco
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Post by frank on Jun 17, 2009 9:18:45 GMT
frank.. he will do anything to get at another dog.. trust me.. if i let him.. he would fit anything and wouldnt stop til he wa dead or the other dog was dead.. imo I know that that is what you think, but behavior is no proof. There are shy dogs that are totally not agressive that proof to be deepgame dogs, and there are bigmouths that quith after they get a beating. Don't say your dog isn't game, only say you can not know unless he has been in the square.
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Post by martinl on Jun 17, 2009 9:22:35 GMT
hes been bitten twice.. just went back for more..
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Post by quinlent on Jun 17, 2009 9:27:01 GMT
can you consider a dog that has not proven himselves to be game? No! You can suggest but you'll never know. Agree it works the same the opposite way frank. You can't say there are no more game staffords unless you put them all to the test! AgreeNow the gamedogs have entered a new time which they have to survive and since a dog can become old now conformation is more important then ever and a big responsability. No, the gamedogs have not entered a new time, as generations of unproven stock will eventually make sure the gamedog is not amonst us anymore with maybe one or two exceptions in a hundred.great conversation mate! But have to agree that we as conformation breeders mainly(thats what we are mostly) this is much more important these days and have to be taken care of. But the gamedog with weak paterns(less perfect physique) will always have the preference of the real dogman. Frank i doubt if the rate has ever been higher then two out of hundred so there isn't that much changed has it? Cheers Mate.
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Post by frank on Jun 17, 2009 9:39:36 GMT
But have to agree that we as conformation breeders mainly(thats what we are mostly) this is much more important these days and have to be taken care of. But the gamedog with weak paterns(less perfect physique) will always have the preference of the real dogman. Frank i doubt if the rate has ever been higher then two out of hundred so there isn't that much changed has it? Cheers Mate. It was much higher. There are known litters of all game dogs, even of litters that became almost all champions. If the chance of getting only 1 or 2 out of a hundred was rule, the whole doggame would never have existed. We can say with certainty that the Stafford is NOT a gamedog in general anymore. We have nice pets, and we are happy with that, but considdering them to be a gamebreed still is just fooling ourselfs.
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Post by quinlent on Jun 17, 2009 9:45:36 GMT
frank.. he will do anything to get at another dog.. trust me.. if i let him.. he would fit anything and wouldnt stop til he wa dead or the other dog was dead.. imo I know that that is what you think, but behavior is no proof. There are shy dogs that are totally not agressive that proof to be deepgame dogs, and there are bigmouths that quith after they get a beating. Don't say your dog isn't game, only say you can not know unless he has been in the square. You see we completely agree we just label it differently Gameness is a reflection of human doubt you never know unless you take them to the box. that is why i don't see these dogs in the beginning of this topic as real staffords compared to today Staffords! They where the last dogs of humans that actually took their staffords to the box. and that is a big difference in approach. if they where better then today dogs i don't care couse they can't be tested to today's dogs couse they are dead and today's dogs live so we will never know do we?. the match will never take place so again the myth is covered in doubt. the only real stafford is the one that lives from my point of view! cheers
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Post by cadgi on Jun 17, 2009 9:48:53 GMT
frank.. he will do anything to get at another dog.. trust me.. if i let him.. he would fit anything and wouldnt stop til he wa dead or the other dog was dead.. imo I know that that is what you think, but behavior is no proof. There are shy dogs that are totally not agressive that proof to be deepgame dogs, and there are bigmouths that quith after they get a beating. Don't say your dog isn't game, only say you can not know unless he has been in the square. i was once told by a friend of mine that his bull/greyhound was game because he toke big number's of fox on the lamp (pre-ban).i told him to cut his back leg of and remove his canine's and if he still want's to take's fox then he's showing gameness.take away his advantage then see how he doe's. A.T.B......Lyndon.
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Post by quinlent on Jun 17, 2009 10:00:02 GMT
Frank i doubt if the rate has ever been higher then two out of hundred so there isn't that much changed has it? Cheers Mate. It was much higher. There are known litters of all game dogs, even of litters that became almost all champions. If the chance of getting only 1 or 2 out of a hundred was rule, the whole doggame would never have existed. We can say with certainty that the Stafford is NOT a gamedog in general anymore. We have nice pets, and we are happy with that, but considdering them to be a gamebreed still is just fooling ourselfs. then why did they need such big kennels of pitbulls in the states and got the british behind due to their small population so they had to switch to pitbulls frank? (this topic is about staffords mate) ofcourse i agree staffords not to be a gamedog in general anymore as it in fact never has been. The difference with the pitbull is that he was only bred for that purpose; dog to dog battle! Staffords where never meant for that in a same degree. Staffords and pitbulls are two different developpements the past hundred years mate. but interesting for sure. Marco
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Post by quinlent on Jun 17, 2009 10:11:09 GMT
I know that that is what you think, but behavior is no proof. There are shy dogs that are totally not agressive that proof to be deepgame dogs, and there are bigmouths that quith after they get a beating. Don't say your dog isn't game, only say you can not know unless he has been in the square. i was once told by a friend of mine that his bull/greyhound was game because he toke big number's of fox on the lamp (pre-ban).i told him to cut his back leg of and remove his canine's and if he still want's to take's fox then he's showing gameness.take away his advantage then see how he doe's. A.T.B......Lyndon. what would have been an absolute waste of a dog that has proven himself in his function. Just to take away a human doubt .....!! but i understand the essence of your message mate! Marco
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Post by cadgi on Jun 17, 2009 10:36:58 GMT
i was once told by a friend of mine that his bull/greyhound was game because he toke big number's of fox on the lamp (pre-ban).i told him to cut his back leg of and remove his canine's and if he still want's to take's fox then he's showing gameness.take away his advantage then see how he doe's. A.T.B......Lyndon. what would have been an absolute waste of a dog proven himself in his function just to take away a human doubt .....!! but i understand the essence of your message mate! Marco cracking thread, and great to see no bitching. A.T.B......Lyndon.
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Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jun 17, 2009 11:50:55 GMT
I agree with your Greyhound comparison frank, but because the perfect physical specimen is not around it does not mean we shouldn't strive to achieve it! I don't disagree with showing dogs, for me it is very valuble for the reduction of poor conformation and the education of correct physical specimens, the only problem is a vast majority of show breeders do not research the past or study pictures of the original types like Galvin's Pup etc and therefore their idea of the correct physical specimen is a falicy. For me conformation, heart, wind and a kind human disposition should be sought by every breeder, no matter if its not achievable.
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Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jun 17, 2009 11:56:21 GMT
Frank and everybody else, top thread and lovely to read your views, you dont get stuff like this anywere else people.
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Post by frank on Jun 17, 2009 12:37:31 GMT
It was much higher. There are known litters of all game dogs, even of litters that became almost all champions. If the chance of getting only 1 or 2 out of a hundred was rule, the whole doggame would never have existed. We can say with certainty that the Stafford is NOT a gamedog in general anymore. We have nice pets, and we are happy with that, but considdering them to be a gamebreed still is just fooling ourselfs. then why did they need such big kennels of pitbulls in the states and got the british behind due to their small population so they had to switch to pitbulls frank? (this topic is about staffords mate) They needed such big kennels because of their big amount of matches and to select the best. A lot of the early pitbull man did not even sell dogs to outside people. So whole litters where kept. Because they had the choice to keep and breed the best out of that 100(for example) they got their advantage. As it is a better change to have a Ace out of 100 then out of 3.
And yes we are talking about Staffords, but as the Pitbull has much better and known examples I use this breed for comparising. As we can be sure that built and gameness with these dogs work the same as with Staffords.ofcourse i agree staffords not to be a gamedog in general anymore as it in fact never has been. The difference with the pitbull is that he was only bred for that purpose; dog to dog battle! Staffords where never meant for that in a same degree. There will be people who don't agree with you on that, but I do. I see also that the Staff was mixed used in Dogfights, Badgerbaiting, ratting, lamping etc etc.Staffords and pitbulls are two different developpements the past hundred years mate. but interesting for sure. Yes, and thats why we also see them as different breeds.Marco
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Post by frank on Jun 17, 2009 12:39:14 GMT
I agree with your Greyhound comparison frank, but because the perfect physical specimen is not around it does not mean we shouldn't strive to achieve it! I don't disagree with showing dogs, for me it is very valuble for the reduction of poor conformation and the education of correct physical specimens, the only problem is a vast majority of show breeders do not research the past or study pictures of the original types like Galvin's Pup etc and therefore their idea of the correct physical specimen is a falicy. For me conformation, heart, wind and a kind human disposition should be sought by every breeder, no matter if its not achievable. Agree with you on this m8
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Post by frank on Jun 17, 2009 12:40:17 GMT
Frank and everybody else, top thread and lovely to read your views, you dont get stuff like this anywere else people. No, and as Cadgi said, no bitching etc. Great sportmansship people
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Post by allan on Jun 17, 2009 13:34:29 GMT
excellent thread!!
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Post by stefan on Jun 17, 2009 13:46:37 GMT
It would be cool to check out each others favorites dogs.
If we look at each others favorites, we learn a little bit more about each other.
I will look up some pictures and hope you do the same.
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Post by quinlent on Jun 17, 2009 13:58:52 GMT
I agree with your Greyhound comparison frank, but because the perfect physical specimen is not around it does not mean we shouldn't strive to achieve it! I don't disagree with showing dogs, for me it is very valuble for the reduction of poor conformation and the education of correct physical specimens, the only problem is a vast majority of show breeders do not research the past or study pictures of the original types like Galvin's Pup etc and therefore their idea of the correct physical specimen is a falicy. For me conformation, heart, wind and a kind human disposition should be sought by every breeder, no matter if its not achievable. i completely agree mate! Cheers Marco
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Post by quinlent on Jun 17, 2009 14:02:43 GMT
It would be cool to check out each others favorites dogs. If we look at each others favorites, we learn a little bit more about each other. I will look up some pictures and hope you do the same. No worries Stefan i will i am @ work and after i have responsibility's for my SBT sporting club training but i'll post a lot of my favourit dogs cheers mate - Marco
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Post by quinlent on Jun 17, 2009 15:14:22 GMT
then why did they need such big kennels of pitbulls in the states and got the british behind due to their small population so they had to switch to pitbulls frank? (this topic is about staffords mate) They needed such big kennels because of their big amount of matches and to select the best. A lot of the early pitbull man did not even sell dogs to outside people. So whole litters where kept. Because they had the choice to keep and breed the best out of that 100(for example) they got their advantage. As it is a better change to have a Ace out of 100 then out of 3. And within bigger available genepools it has been possible to breed the complete dog? And very important they where not shared! which shows that the intire matter of the search for gameness is only for a few very devoted people to that matter. And isn't it an important factor only for those few who actually bring their dogs to the box on a regular basis? Then can you agree with me that it should stay in the minority? and that for examples in pictures it is better to put up well constructed Staffords and honour the discussion about game dogs in story's and not in pictures becouse it gives a wrong direction to people where to breed for in fysics? Can you agree that we for sure made a big step forward in conformation in general?
And yes we are talking about Staffords, but as the Pitbull has much better and known examples I use this breed for comparising. As we can be sure that built and gameness with these dogs work the same as with Staffords.When you need to make a step to an other breed isn't it that the thing about Staffords is from a different order and open for fair critiques? as we have learned this discussion gameness can only be seen by a few that are seriously breaking the law? It is better to tell the story of gameness uncensored but without a picture others then old photo's out of pits to give an example. ofcourse i agree staffords not to be a gamedog in general anymore as it in fact never has been. The difference with the pitbull is that he was only bred for that purpose; dog to dog battle! Staffords where never meant for that in a same degree. There will be people who don't agree with you on that, but I do. I see also that the Staff was mixed used in Dogfights, Badgerbaiting, ratting, lamping etc etc.exactly my point and i know people will not agree but there is no doubt in my mindStaffords and pitbulls are two different developpements the past hundred years mate. but interesting for sure. Yes, and thats why we also see them as different breeds.Exactly!Marco
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