Stafford times 2010

[neilsherlock]

I hope to answer some questions about my considerations for placements at the Stafford times. I have no regrets and some of the questioning as made me look at my judging deeply. I still believe these were the right desicions.

Working Bull breeds. What’s the difference? How do we assess?


There is a class now at our shows which is termed the working class, I believe sometimes mistakenly called the athletic class. This class holds many different breeds and types that have different breed characteristics due to the different tasks they faced in earlier years.

We have the Stafford and the pit bull, which if looked at, had different tasks from the conception, the Stafford itself had many different tasks and therefore many different body types within the breed. Along with these types there is the EBT and AM Staff which all have to be judged together.

The Badger dog did not require the length of leg the Pit bull did, nor the length of neck or lung capacity. Indeed whilst not required to be an endurance athlete, he was an athlete specific to his task.

The rat pit dog needed to be lighter than the badger dog and smaller than the pit bull.

Stafford’s and Stafford pit and English crosses that proportionally would fit the Stafford or EBT kennel club standard where fought in the pit, many with careers at the pinnacle of their game.

Were they any less of an athlete than the 22” Pit Bulls? Is Mike Tyson any less of an athlete than Lennox Lewis? Different builds have different styles. One was a fighter who a demolition body type, one a boxer who landed blows repeatedly for 12 rounds.

You must be able to differentiate breed type and task and examine an individual on the basis of its particular task. This examination is not about a look, neither is it about its weight (condition) within reason. It is about the skeletal and muscular conformation. Is it sound enough to see the dog through the tasks it would of faced, and is it sound enough to carry it through these tasks repeatedly, for its whole life.

Dogs that have loads of drive and endless stamina are not in superiority in a conformation ring. Superiority in conformation, muscular and skeletal, which is particular to the individual’s tasks are the only consideration.

People will not like to hear their charge has inferior conformation for the long term life expectancy of a working animal, but it is important we make these distinctions.
Thanks for your time,

Neil Sherlock

[teapot]

What total bollox...If a dog is doing the job it dont matter how it's built.
You have read to many books and not enough hands on.
Grow some balls and get out there and work your dogs for real...Then come and preach from real experience...untill then stop talking dribble as if you know what you are talking about.

[neilsherlock]

fair one, lol. thats just the type of advice id listen too

[frank]

As Niel placed his piece besides on the Dutch forum also on this forum, I also will add my responce here.

Dear Neil,

Let me first start by appologising that I was that rough on you. It was not meant to be, but I was too much taken by the strong sentiments I still have for these breeds of dogs.

I will not discuss about any of this anymore as I feel I already did too much, and it is not fair to the owners of said dogs.

I like to come back on weak patterns. You say that weak patterns are cutting the workinglife of a dog short if I understand right?
Fact is that many pit dogs have this fault. Many of them have had long working carreers. We have to take in mind that most Pit dogs do not even get heavier than 20 kg, they do not carry a lot of weight with them, this in combination with their built make them less sensitive for injuries. Different is this with Horses as I understand.

[dog]

Whether or not you consider it a serious fault, it's a fault and has to be judged as such.

Usain Bolt has scoliosis, doesn't mean that people with scoliosis make good sprinters although his children may have it and they'll likely be good sprinters too.

[frank]

Dec 19, 2010 18:33:05 GMT @dog said:

Whether or not you consider it a serious fault, it's a fault and has to be judged as such.

Usain Bolt has scoliosis, doesn't mean that people with scoliosis make good sprinters although his children may have it and they'll likely be good sprinters too.

You can not compare that with scoliosis m8.

There are more important things for a workingdog than small imperfections. But I understand that this is a impossible task to convince some.

[frank]

Do you really read what I write?

[dog]

You're saying that it's an imperfection (small or otherwise).

Neil also thinks it's an imperfection and so chose to mark down, I don't see how that's controversial.

[dog]

Dec 19, 2010 18:49:14 GMT frank said:

Do you really read what I write?

Not very well no, that's why I re-wrote it, sorry Frank.

I deleted what I said and put the above ^ post.

[frank]

Dec 19, 2010 18:52:21 GMT @dog said:

You're saying that it's an imperfection (small or otherwise).

Neil also thinks it's an imperfection and so chose to mark down, I don't see how that's controversial.

I am not gona do the whole discussion over here.

The classes like also the ones on Ed's show should represent dogs that are built the old way. Small imperfections or not, this omy plays a role with 2 equal animals.

[dog]

Yourself and Neil have different views on how these classes should be judged and therefore you would have placed the Dogs differently, no big deal.

[neilsherlock]

Weak pasterns usually come with poor shoulder alinement, poor shoulders usually come with a reduction in neck leverage. It all adds up.

[poacher]

ok had to rejoin to reply to this, Neil you obviously have never been to any Badger trials nor seen a dog at the badger for real, where did you get the above from about about length of neck nor needing leg?I really dont want to go into anymore as I am shaking my head in disbelief and I have a feeling you or who would appear to be your disciple will procastinate.

[neilsherlock]

Your quite right poacher i havent, i only go of my readings and do not claim anything else. Dont claim to know it all either. Youve lost me on procastinate, im sorry. There was a post on here which frank will remember about a very bully short limbed animal that was used in badger trials. The majority of the writing was by Ray Delaney. I think this would be worth a re visit. Nice to have you back poacher.

I have an interest in the history of these dogs and in conformation. That is my thing. Of coarse i can be corrected. please feel free. I was told once to be careful how far you lean out off the fence, you may just fall off. Thats fine, ill fall off cos were discussing things that ive said and thats good enough for me. I do not wish to argue school boy style with anyone, just in this to learn.

Cheers again, Neil

[dog]

Disciple? I'm his brother and so I know him rather well and know how well qualified he is to judge conformation.

Do you think you could judge conformation better Poacher?

[poacher]

who knows but I have judged bulls here , Eire and the balkans over the last 20yrs
As forRay atting to Tom Barry

balls whats happend here

[dog]

Oh good, you can have an informed discussion about conformation then.

[neilsherlock]

Well I for one am keen to learn with historical refrence, but discussing things seems hard. Oh well i have only historical refrence to go by and only wish to go by this.

I would love to see and read pics and articles on here. Maybe if people did keep scrapping and just got down to talking we could all learn. LOL i know thats just not gonna happen though.

[poacher]

I would but its annoying when the lap dogs are always yapping ;-)

[poacher]

incidently it smacks of a rank cur or a lap dog to post when in the invisible mode.And I'm pretty sure Neil is big enough to talk for himself , if you give him a chance to get a word in edgeways that is

[poacher]

Dec 19, 2010 21:47:16 GMT @neilsherlock said:

Well I for one am keen to learn with historical refrence, but discussing things seems hard. Oh well i have only historical refrence to go by and only wish to go by this.

I would love to see and read pics and articles on here. Maybe if people did keep scrapping and just got down to talking we could all learn. LOL i know thats just not gonna happen though.

well theres plenty of my pics flying around the net as I have discovered lately and on occassion some have even claimed to have taken them lol Neil I dont mind sharing, but the yorkie would need to be put on the lead 1st

[dog]

Dec 19, 2010 21:51:19 GMT poacher said:

incidently it smacks of a rank cur or a lap dog to post when in the invisible mode.And I'm pretty sure Neil is big enough to talk for himself , if you give him a chance to get a word in edgeways that is

WTF has 'invisible mode' got to do with anything? It only tells people when you are or aren't online, nothing to do with hiding my identity.

My name's Owen Sherlock as most people here know and I'm entitled to post whenever I like on whatever I like.

[moro]

Dec 19, 2010 20:31:28 GMT @neilsherlock said:

Weak pasterns usually come with poor shoulder alinement, poor shoulders usually come with a reduction in neck leverage. It all adds up.

We'll always try to look for that 100% dog/bitch, but as you know, in the real world it doens't work like that, it's not always possible if your are looking for a "real" working dog.

No offence but, you don't place real athletes with weak pasterns and yet you place a "non athlete" undershot dog 1st, isn't that judging with a "double standard" if skeleton conformation is on top of your list?

[poacher]

maybe I should change my name to sherlock as it didnt take 2 secs to suss it was you hiding in invisible.
and yes you are entitled to post on what ever you like but surely you are arent that stupid that you cant see that yes you are speaking yetyou are not actually saying anything.
Wheres John Noakes when you need him?
I guess I'll have to say it then.............."Down Shep," ;-)

[poacher]

[neilsherlock]

Dec 19, 2010 22:14:56 GMT moro said:

Dec 19, 2010 20:31:28 GMT @neilsherlock said:

Weak pasterns usually come with poor shoulder alinement, poor shoulders usually come with a reduction in neck leverage. It all adds up.

We'll always try to look for that 100% dog/bitch, but as you know, in the real world it doens't work like that, it's not always possible if your are looking for a "real" working dog.

No offence but, you don't place real athletes with weak pasterns and yet you place a "non athlete" undershot dog 1st, isn't that judging with a "double standard" if skeleton conformation is on top of your list?

Hello Moro, your interpretation of non athletic not mine obvously. I dont remember an undershot dog?. Moro i cant be arsed with this anymore. I wish id picked Franks judgeing apart last summer now as believe me there were comments there too. Frank says this approach is a more direct approach than the English. To me it is just pure Rude. Get off the band wagon mate, its not attractive.

[poacher]

I just went to remove the swearing but the post has been deleted

[poacher]

Dec 19, 2010 21:27:36 GMT @neilsherlock said:

Your quite right poacher i havent, i only go of my readings and do not claim anything else. Dont claim to know it all either. Youve lost me on procastinate, im sorry. There was a post on here which frank will remember about a very bully short limbed animal that was used in badger trials. The majority of the writing was by Ray Delaney. I think this would be worth a re visit. Nice to have you back poacher.

I have an interest in the history of these dogs and in conformation. That is my thing. Of coarse i can be corrected. please feel free. I was told once to be careful how far you lean out off the fence, you may just fall off. Thats fine, ill fall off cos were discussing things that ive said and thats good enough for me. I do not wish to argue school boy style with anyone, just in this to learn.

Cheers again, Neil

dont think I'll be here long your brother has just threatened to ban me oh well

dog I have spent my ENTIRE life around working dogs, not agility or a frame dogs working dogs, so if knowing that you are talking utter garbage historically is Antagonistic then I guess it is. TBH you post like a book expert in the first few years flush of a new hobby but THAT is just my opinion, if you have kept bull breeds for 20/30yrs then please accept my apologies

ciao

[dog]

Dec 19, 2010 23:09:31 GMT poacher said:

Dec 19, 2010 21:27:36 GMT @neilsherlock said:

Your quite right poacher i havent, i only go of my readings and do not claim anything else. Dont claim to know it all either. Youve lost me on procastinate, im sorry. There was a post on here which frank will remember about a very bully short limbed animal that was used in badger trials. The majority of the writing was by Ray Delaney. I think this would be worth a re visit. Nice to have you back poacher.

I have an interest in the history of these dogs and in conformation. That is my thing. Of coarse i can be corrected. please feel free. I was told once to be careful how far you lean out off the fence, you may just fall off. Thats fine, ill fall off cos were discussing things that ive said and thats good enough for me. I do not wish to argue school boy style with anyone, just in this to learn.

Cheers again, Neil

dont think I'll be here long your brother has just threatened to ban me oh well

dog I have spent my ENTIRE life around working dogs, not agility or a frame dogs working dogs, so if knowing that you are talking utter garbage historically is Antagonistic then I guess it is. TBH you post like a book expert in the first few years flush of a new hobby but THAT is just my opinion, if you have kept bull breeds for 20/30yrs then please accept my apologies

ciao

Get a life Poacher. If you've a problem with anything in particular let me know and we'll can talk about it but all you're doing at the moment is antagonising and as you said you don't tolerate it on your site so I'm not sure why I should.

[dog]

BTW yes, I've kept Bull breeds for more than 20 years so I accept your apologies.