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Post by Jessica on May 19, 2010 15:56:40 GMT
I think there is a massive difference to the attitude to weight pull over here in the UK. There simply isn't not the understanding of training , technique and obedience here. Instead i think at times the dogs prey drive is taken advantage of to the extreme and in some cases its verging on cruelty.
I wouldn't let any of my dogs pull on a collar any form of weight its not fair its simply common sense. Take Our Poppy - she would without a doubt pull tones on a collar if baited, but i would NEVER subject her to that kind of strain on her body - She would only be doing it through prey drive because of being baited.... That to me misses the whole point of weight pull. IMO Its about the relationship of the dog and the handler - The want to work, The technique, The controlled strength of the dog, and most importantly the enjoyment that the dogs gets from what its doing - Not because its having something waved in front of its face and baited along....
If a dog wont pull unabated its not enjoying the pulling - Its simply enjoying being baited....
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Post by oldetyme on May 19, 2010 16:41:58 GMT
i dont think we are miles apart here! why not say have a ten minute match where a dog wins either by pulling other dog over line or one dog dropping the bait and it after ten minutes there is no winner, then it goes to the judges!!! pound for pound with an exception of a pound either way. I'd compromise to that. I'd still like to see if its possible to do some sort of weight compensation. Because for example the mainland TOW events we have are are tournament style (like k-1 or tennis) so you have more and more matches under your belt as you progress. This makes it an even greater test for character & endurance. In SBTSC ToW events the cutoff point is 20 minutes. But they are called ties. What would the judges be looking for to call a winner in case they need to? Anton, in a case like that, the judges would be looking to award the dog that put more fight up, i.e. the dogs that pulls back, shakes out the hold and the one who is first to make his move, the one who looks like he wants to win and not just hold out. hope that makes sence mate. the one if you had a choice to take home as a tug o war athlete.
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Post by emilia on May 19, 2010 17:15:05 GMT
Even though I dont understand some of the words and some sentences (I need to google some of them ;D) its really interesting to see the responce and the different thinking. I wanted to know since I never ever seen any dog pull in a collar here in Sweden so this phenomenon is all new to me. I cant say anyting about it since I dont know anything, but I will continue let my dogs pull in harnesses on our dw rounds
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dodger
Junior Member
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Post by dodger on May 19, 2010 17:51:19 GMT
emilia if your dogs are pulling in a harness then don't let them pull in a collar as it will be harder to get them to pull in a harness again when you want them too if mine would pull in a harness then id be alot happier
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Post by emilia on May 19, 2010 19:51:59 GMT
emilia if your dogs are pulling in a harness then don't let them pull in a collar as it will be harder to get them to pull in a harness again when you want them too if mine would pull in a harness then id be alot happier Maybe I wasnt clear enough, ( my english isnt the best, sorry ) but what I meant in my last post was that Im not going to let my dogs pull in collars, as they are pulling in harness now. We are doing dw each and every day at walks, but with easier weights. My male hated it before, he wouldnt move, stood there just like a statue, but after a few years he just did it one day. I may have been just lucky or maybe it was because I was more stubborn than my dog, dont know for sure
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Post by owasocourin on May 19, 2010 19:54:58 GMT
I think there is a massive difference to the attitude to weight pull over here in the UK. There simply isn't not the understanding of training , technique and obedience here. Instead i think at times the dogs prey drive is taken advantage of to the extreme and in some cases its verging on cruelty. I wouldn't let any of my dogs pull on a collar any form of weight its not fair its simply common sense. Take Our Poppy - she would without a doubt pull tones on a collar if baited, but i would NEVER subject her to that kind of strain on her body - She would only be doing it through prey drive because of being baited.... That to me misses the whole point of weight pull. IMO Its about the relationship of the dog and the handler - The want to work, The technique, The controlled strength of the dog, and most importantly the enjoyment that the dogs gets from what its doing - Not because its having something waved in front of its face and baited along.... If a dog wont pull unabated its not enjoying the pulling - Its simply enjoying being baited.... Nice post Jessica. I have trained Lily with baiting in order to participate in these comps. She does not enjoy pulling and would not pull unbaited, sometimes not pulling baited. Shes not enjoying it and i will not let her pull again. I have other issues with it too but thats another story. I work with working horses daily, just because they seem right when working, when assed to a greater degree they have problems that they just work through.The argument that pulling in a collar has happened for years and ive never seen an injury is the point im trying to make about hte working horses. You wont have to see the injuries and they may not occour for years. This is why i would not let Lily pull in a collar. I did once or twice with Bob but you lives and learns. We must provide the best equipment and training for our mutts. If that means our dogs wont pull then so be it. Also there is insufficient warm up before these comps over here. Ive lifted heavy weights and if your not warm you WILL pick up long term injuries
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Post by anton on May 19, 2010 20:21:22 GMT
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Post by anton on May 19, 2010 20:23:44 GMT
Ey Neil, good point on the warm up, and also lets not forget the cooldown. After the a-frame for example I didnt see a lot of people doing a good walk/rub to get the poison from the muscles. Probably cost them a few ms on the lure race...
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Post by Jessica on May 19, 2010 20:25:46 GMT
I agree - Slightly off post but the lack of warming the dogs and warm down up before and after the events is also just so irresponsible. I have been studying now for the last couple of years for my canine sports massage and stretching qualification....I regularly massage and stretch all the dogs. The fact that there is no one warming up or stretching thier 'sport dog athletes' is quick ironic.... and not really fair on the dogs - would you expect a 100m sprinter to get out a cage after being sat in thier all day and just sprint??....But like you said that is whole other discussion. As far as the augment - thier is no proof the damage caused by pulling on the collar... that is as ignorant as thinking that that amount of strain concerted on the neck (one of the most vulnerable ares of a dogs body) is not damaging nerve endings, blood vessels trachea spine etc. Like you have all said, its down to the owner and what they are will to put thier dog through for a trophy or a rosette. Personally i think that it wont be long before WP is banned here if pulling on a collar is continued....Its not doing anyone any favours... JMO of course no offence meant..
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Post by owasocourin on May 19, 2010 20:26:25 GMT
Ey Neil, good point on the warm up, and also lets not forget the cooldown. After the a-frame for example I didnt see a lot of people doing a good walk/rub to get the poison from the muscles. Probably cost them a few ms on the lure race... im dam sure i did. Also during the thirty secs break most kept their dogs still. Lactic acid all the way baby!
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Post by anton on May 19, 2010 20:27:50 GMT
Ey Neil, good point on the warm up, and also lets not forget the cooldown. After the a-frame for example I didnt see a lot of people doing a good walk/rub to get the poison from the muscles. Probably cost them a few ms on the lure race... im dam sure i did. Also during the thirty secs break most kept their dogs still. Lactic acid all the way baby! I saw you do that and copied it straigt away. I also find it a good way to prepare myself mentally. To stay in the zone. For my a-frame warmup I ran around the course, first awalking, then running, with lil interval sprints. for about 10-15 minutes. After the a-frame I did the same again but a bit slower. Also to be very sure Rommel didnt have any injuries or strains that would prevent him from doing the lure race.
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Post by owasocourin on May 19, 2010 20:34:03 GMT
I agree - Slightly off post but the lack of warming the dogs and warm down up before and after the events is also just so irresponsible. I have been studying now for the last couple of years for my canine sports massage and stretching qualification....I regularly massage and stretch all the dogs. The fact that there is no one warming up or stretching thier 'sport dog athletes' is quick ironic.... and not really fair on the dogs - would you expect a 100m sprinter to get out a cage after being sat in thier all day and just sprint??....But like you said that is whole other discussion. As far as the augment - thier is no proof the damage caused by pulling on the collar... that is as ignorant as thinking that that amount of strain concerted on the neck (one of the most vulnerable ares of a dogs body) is not damaging nerve endings, blood vessels trachea spine etc. Like you have all said, its down to the owner and what they are will to put thier dog through for a trophy or a rosette. Personally i think that it wont be long before WP is banned here if pulling on a collar is continued....Its not doing anyone any favours... JMO of course no offence meant.. Ive raised my concerns about it jessica, i think we need to be whiter than white in the bull breed world. This could be deemed an animal welfare issue and it is something i think should stop straight away. Heres hoping its sorted for the future
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dodger
Junior Member
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Post by dodger on May 19, 2010 20:50:46 GMT
as i have mentioned befor i really wanna get dodger off of a collar and onto a harness has anyone got any tip as to how to train him to use it as he does not feel comfortable in them from past experiences
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Post by leighandapple on May 19, 2010 21:54:16 GMT
Weight pull is a great sport and is also a fantastic crowd pleaser (as shown at the F&F show Saturday). I totally agree with Jessica with regards to the different attitude shown here about training a dog to pull, people here just want their dogs to pull as soon as they put the harness on and if they don't they think that the dog just won't ever pull in a harness. In the states people spend years training their weight pull dogs and that's why they have the best pullers in the world. Each dog is different and may need a slightly different approach to training. You can't beat seeing the bond between a trained pulling dog and its handler, a human and canine team working together.
With regards to health issues, that's why sanctioned weight pulls have quite strict rules which covers sling-shots etc, so a dog must pull smoothly or it's disqualified.
If more people pulled in harnesses/unbaited the more it would encourage others to do the same and we would slowly start to catch up with American pullers.
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Post by leighandapple on May 19, 2010 22:04:19 GMT
as i have mentioned befor i really wanna get dodger off of a collar and onto a harness has anyone got any tip as to how to train him to use it as he does not feel comfortable in them from past experiences To help him to like the harness and for him to see it as a fun thing start by putting it on him and playing with him for a few minutes, then taking it off. Do NO pulling at this point, just put the harness on while you play with him then take it off. Do this a few times a day for at least a couple of weeks or until he wags his tail at the sight of the harness. You want him to love the harness. You can also do some obedience training (with treats) while the harness is on. I hope this helps for a starter. Cheers Leigh.
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Post by Jessica on May 19, 2010 22:10:00 GMT
You have got it in one Leighandapple...good post.
Although its a real shame that more people here dont have your attitude.
The whole time pulling in a collar is encouraged it will continue...
It comes down to people standing up for what is right for thier dogs in the long run...not egos.
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Post by frank on May 20, 2010 5:28:29 GMT
I'd compromise to that. I'd still like to see if its possible to do some sort of weight compensation. Because for example the mainland TOW events we have are are tournament style (like k-1 or tennis) so you have more and more matches under your belt as you progress. This makes it an even greater test for character & endurance. In SBTSC ToW events the cutoff point is 20 minutes. But they are called ties. What would the judges be looking for to call a winner in case they need to? Anton, in a case like that, the judges would be looking to award the dog that put more fight up, i.e. the dogs that pulls back, shakes out the hold and the one who is first to make his move, the one who looks like he wants to win and not just hold out. hope that makes sence mate. the one if you had a choice to take home as a tug o war athlete. I do not agree that the dog with the most fight should win after a tie. In my opinion we can NOT make a judgement of value on this as every dog is different. There are smart dogs who just know the game and wait for their moment. We see dogs that just do that and wait for their moment, when their opponent tiers, they start shaking it out even after sometimes waiting even longer then a hour. If you want to have a competition with ties(and you want to see one winner), you should at least let the last match between the two best dogs last untill one loses. Only then you have the true winner. One thing you see when you let it last is the stamina of the dog and his determination, you don't see this when you tie at 20 minutes. You see a dog that can keep a hold for 20 minutes, thats all.
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Post by frank on May 20, 2010 5:37:51 GMT
Another point with this system is that in this case it turns out like a jury sport, where the judge decides who wins at a personally teinted decission. In this case the actually best dog is probably in 50% of the cases not winning.
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Post by Griffa on May 20, 2010 7:44:27 GMT
i personly think pulling on a collar is silly like already said its comon sense it defantly isnt doing any good to the dogs neck wen i got my dog a prong collar it said on the website that they did tests on dogs that wore choke chains and pulled on them and 99% of them had damaged necks inside prob wouldnt of slowed the dogs down coz they just get on with it
its took me well over a year to get my big dog to pull propaly with no bait its not easy to do and takes a lot of time like whats been said imo if the dog wont pull unbaited then it cant really be injoyin the pullin part of it my wiston has earnt his wpf titles 1/2/3 it has to be complety unbaited
wen starting weight pulling i would get a good walking harness and do long walks in that if a dog has only ever been walked in a collar then u put a massive weight pull harness on them they will freak out the hardest bit i found was stopping them from turning around at the harness and biting it its just a lot of practice and make it fun
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Post by oldetyme on May 20, 2010 9:45:15 GMT
Anton, in a case like that, the judges would be looking to award the dog that put more fight up, i.e. the dogs that pulls back, shakes out the hold and the one who is first to make his move, the one who looks like he wants to win and not just hold out. hope that makes sence mate. the one if you had a choice to take home as a tug o war athlete. I do not agree that the dog with the most fight should win after a tie. In my opinion we can NOT make a judgement of value on this as every dog is different. There are smart dogs who just know the game and wait for their moment. We see dogs that just do that and wait for their moment, when their opponent tiers, they start shaking it out even after sometimes waiting even longer then a hour. If you want to have a competition with ties(and you want to see one winner), you should at least let the last match between the two best dogs last untill one loses. Only then you have the true winner. One thing you see when you let it last is the stamina of the dog and his determination, you don't see this when you tie at 20 minutes. You see a dog that can keep a hold for 20 minutes, thats all. frank you have some valid points and i may well be wrong, i love the idea of tug o war, i think it looks like a great sport for the bull breeds.
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Post by quinlent on May 20, 2010 11:29:32 GMT
Do you realy believe this? ? @ Shakka ill comment in front of your back I think pulling on a collar is a bad idea for 3 reasons. 1. I dont like my dog to pull when im walking him, so it will be confusing to reward him encourage him for this when pulling a cart. 2. Despite that perhaps there are no reports of (direct) injuries, it will hurt the throat, partly closing it off (also making it impossible to breath in most optimum way). Wether or not there are any visible injuries, i have no doubt its detrimental to a dogs condition. But thats just my gut 3. the dogs natural pulling power comes from his front, not his neck. So he will never achieve his potential. But as I always say, to each there own. I think the Americans have figured the pulling thing quite well. I also believe for example the americans are right not to allow baiting. Because it triggers prey drive instead of the pull drive. I was very pleased to see some folks pulling without any baiting on saturday aswell, and doing very well.
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Post by anton on May 20, 2010 12:15:43 GMT
Do you realy believe this? ? @ Shakka ill comment in front of your back I think pulling on a collar is a bad idea for 3 reasons. 1. I dont like my dog to pull when im walking him, so it will be confusing to reward him encourage him for this when pulling a cart. 2. Despite that perhaps there are no reports of (direct) injuries, it will hurt the throat, partly closing it off (also making it impossible to breath in most optimum way). Wether or not there are any visible injuries, i have no doubt its detrimental to a dogs condition. But thats just my gut 3. the dogs natural pulling power comes from his front, not his neck. So he will never achieve his potential. But as I always say, to each there own. I think the Americans have figured the pulling thing quite well. I also believe for example the americans are right not to allow baiting. Because it triggers prey drive instead of the pull drive. I was very pleased to see some folks pulling without any baiting on saturday aswell, and doing very well. Yes I do :-) You expected something else?
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Post by anton on May 20, 2010 12:16:10 GMT
I do not agree that the dog with the most fight should win after a tie. In my opinion we can NOT make a judgement of value on this as every dog is different. There are smart dogs who just know the game and wait for their moment. We see dogs that just do that and wait for their moment, when their opponent tiers, they start shaking it out even after sometimes waiting even longer then a hour. If you want to have a competition with ties(and you want to see one winner), you should at least let the last match between the two best dogs last untill one loses. Only then you have the true winner. One thing you see when you let it last is the stamina of the dog and his determination, you don't see this when you tie at 20 minutes. You see a dog that can keep a hold for 20 minutes, thats all. frank you have some valid points and i may well be wrong, i love the idea of tug o war, i think it looks like a great sport for the bull breeds. Come over to the mainland and find out
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Post by frank on May 20, 2010 12:42:16 GMT
Do you realy believe this? ? @ Shakka ill comment in front of your back I think pulling on a collar is a bad idea for 3 reasons. 1. I dont like my dog to pull when im walking him, so it will be confusing to reward him encourage him for this when pulling a cart. 2. Despite that perhaps there are no reports of (direct) injuries, it will hurt the throat, partly closing it off (also making it impossible to breath in most optimum way). Wether or not there are any visible injuries, i have no doubt its detrimental to a dogs condition. But thats just my gut 3. the dogs natural pulling power comes from his front, not his neck. So he will never achieve his potential. But as I always say, to each there own. I think the Americans have figured the pulling thing quite well. I also believe for example the americans are right not to allow baiting. Because it triggers prey drive instead of the pull drive. I was very pleased to see some folks pulling without any baiting on saturday aswell, and doing very well. There are no investigations that class Anton's points as a fact. Point 1 does not really have to be the case as I think a dog can see the difference in weightpulling and walking round the block. Point 2 and 3 are in my opinion valid facts. I have done some strongman activities in the past, and truck pulling was one of them. Yes I believe I could have pulled with my neck(not sure or it would have damaged my throat), but I do NOT think that I would have been able to pull just as much as with my chest in the harness.
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Post by frank on May 20, 2010 12:43:50 GMT
In the post above "valid facts" should read " valid points" .
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Post by oldetyme on May 20, 2010 13:33:25 GMT
frank you have some valid points and i may well be wrong, i love the idea of tug o war, i think it looks like a great sport for the bull breeds. Come over to the mainland and find out i'm already living in the mainland. lol
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Post by quinlent on May 20, 2010 17:55:22 GMT
i am asking for believing which never is a fact
and i personally would never compare primate capability's with canine capability's.
i question the points that Anton is writing down! 1 i think Frank put it down wright 2 There is no proof of hurt when a dog pulls on a collar and there is no proof of less air compared to a harness as the harness mainly pressing on the breast bone (sternum which is fatal for breathing) a harnass can have a small advantage but that depents on the connection hight of the cart which has to be variable to level the prosternum line of a dog which never is the case which is the main reason that dogs pull more on a collar then in a harnass as we withnessed at several SACS events. 3 The dogs natural pulling power comes from his back when built / angulation wright
When horses have to pull heavy (plowing) they are connected to the neck when they have to do a light weight it is attached low
these are the things that we founded out during our study on weight pull.
i look forward to different point of vieuws.
Cheers - Marco
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Post by anton on May 20, 2010 19:45:50 GMT
Point #1. I said I dont like *MY* dog pulling on his collar. I like to be very clear in my messages to my dog. Either pull (harness, pull as hard as you can boy, and also: work (tracking harness). or do not pull: Collar. Simple communication always best. Point #2 Like I said, just my gut. I'd rather not let my dog be the one that proves it. Point #3 Sure his back, hindlegs are the powerhouse of the dog. Never saw dog of ages gone by pull on the neck. And this kind of cart is banned specifically by law since 67. and a final one from my family scrapbook:
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Post by frank on May 20, 2010 20:47:44 GMT
2 There is no proof of hurt when a dog pulls on a collar and there is no proof of less air compared to a harness as the harness mainly pressing on the breast bone (sternum which is fatal for breathing) I personally think that the preasure on the shoulders is even more then on the sternum. And no, this is not fatal for breathing, as IS PROVEN at many weightpull events here and in the States where they even pull more then we will ever do because of the high volume games they can write on their calender.
One thing that might be true is that maybe dogs pull more comfortable on a collar because they are used to it(not because it is better). They probably do not bounce from frustration as much.I do not mind that people pull on a collar, but please don't turn this in something where we are gona say that a collar is better than a harness! a harnass can have a small advantage but that depents on the connection hight of the cart which has to be variable to level the prosternum line of a dog which never is the case which is the main reason that dogs pull more on a collar then in a harnass as we withnessed at several SACS events. so now you are gona say that a dog pulls more on a collar? Really??3 The dogs natural pulling power comes from his back when built / angulation wright Back legs yesWhen horses have to pull heavy (plowing) they are connected to the neck when they have to do a light weight it is attached low This is with horses maybe so, but as dogs are no horses and horses no dogs, we can not be sure that this comparrison goes all the way.these are the things that we founded out during our study on weight pull. Joe have pulled nearly 800 kg at his first weightpull on wheels, he was when I remember right 17,2 kg. The track was sucking on the wheels and he was pulling in a harness. So you want to make me believe that you could have made him pull more on a collar? Then the dogs you brought with you should have pulled at least that 800 kg as the flooring of the weightpull was perfect.
No Marco, I do not believe that. But the fact that dogs CAN pull on a collar are there, and that some can make a very good pull with it is also clear.
i look forward to different point of views. Cheers - Marco Whe fact the dogs you brought performed that well is because of the effort your club put in it, and the training of the owners. Just plain simple hard work. I have attended a weightpull last year with two untrained dogs that didn't even pull for 1,5 years, and it was a fiasco. To perform as the best of your league you have to train according to it, and with this the will to work and you have a winner(if the others didn't even train harder )
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Post by owasocourin on May 21, 2010 7:31:20 GMT
I know there is no proof(scientific research does not excist ) of less air to the throat Marco but common sense would tell us this is so.
To watch these dogs pull on a collar is uncomfortable viewing for me, Let alone people who would gladly ban all bull breeds. These organisations need to portray a proffesional way of promoting sports to survive.
Like i mentioned before injuries may not appear for years to come. I cannot understand why organistions would not pull on the correct equipment, if dogs cannot pull on the harness you get less dogs in the comp, but so what this is about the dogs not the people or gate reciets.
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