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Post by emilia on May 17, 2010 8:36:53 GMT
Ive been looking at the pics from your form & function day and you all seemed to have a great day, Lovely photos! Wish we could have something like that here in Sweden. But we only have WP competitions at most. I was wondering about your dogs (some of them) doing WP in collars and not in harnesses. Is it common in UK or do you have any argument to why they should pull in collars? If someone here in Sweden would let their dog pull in collars I can promise most people would go insane, less or more. And they would tell you about all kind of injuries the dog can get from it. I cant tell myself why a dog should pull in collars so please, can someone tell me why? I'm just curious, not judging!
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Post by Shakka-Staffs on May 17, 2010 8:54:51 GMT
my dog has pulled in collar for 3 years i have never seen or herde of any injury from this apart from peoples stories on forums with no backed up proof. Not all competitions in the uk will allow this but this is how it was done before harnesses were made. My dog refuses to pull in a harness and has always done it this way. People proboblly comment behind my back but tbh i dont care its either pull in collar or dont take part. My bitch would not pull if she didnt want to. she is happy in a collar and ive have not seen any ill effects caused by it either during or after the events. Other event in the uk make you use a harness and those ones i cannot enter. I do not have any argument as to why, do you have any argument as to why it should be stopped ? they were all this way once and obviously if my dog was pulling 5000lbs things might be different but she dont and what she is pulling im am quite happy is safe for her to pull.
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Post by banksy on May 17, 2010 9:21:00 GMT
my dog pulled 1000kg on his collar ,but when i put him on a harrness he does not pull nowhere near that and starts messing about or refuseing to pull at all. so a collar definatly better for my dog
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Post by southern-staffords on May 17, 2010 9:40:27 GMT
I too have heard "stories on forums" about pulling on a collar but seen NO proof of any injury to a dog?? I have seen 100's of dogs pulling on a collar and they usually out-pull dogs in harnesses??? why??? Never seen 1 injury??? My dog Lunar will not pull in a harness were my Olsen will and he wont pull in a collar? I wish other groups would allow collars as there are some great pullers there that aren't seen just because they refuse to pull in a harness but thats rules for ya. S.A.C.S will ALWAYS allow dogs to pull in a collar if the owner wishes we do have harnesses to use if they wish. S.A.C.S IRON DOG 2009 top 3 weight pull dogs ALL on collars. S.A.C.S Form & Function Best lb 4 lb 13kg pulling over 600kg on a collar S.A.C.S Form & Function most weight pulled 1000kg on a collar
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Post by anton on May 17, 2010 9:44:37 GMT
@ Shakka ill comment in front of your back I think pulling on a collar is a bad idea for 3 reasons. 1. I dont like my dog to pull when im walking him, so it will be confusing to reward him encourage him for this when pulling a cart. 2. Despite that perhaps there are no reports of (direct) injuries, it will hurt the throat, partly closing it off (also making it impossible to breath in most optimum way). Wether or not there are any visible injuries, i have no doubt its detrimental to a dogs condition. But thats just my gut 3. the dogs natural pulling power comes from his front, not his neck. So he will never achieve his potential. But as I always say, to each there own. I think the Americans have figured the pulling thing quite well. I also believe for example the americans are right not to allow baiting. Because it triggers prey drive instead of the pull drive. I was very pleased to see some folks pulling without any baiting on saturday aswell, and doing very well.
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Post by Shakka-Staffs on May 17, 2010 10:05:42 GMT
Anton abbey will walk to heal when told and pull on lead when told, so for me that part is not a problem. I agree it will obscure breathing a bit but what do i do ? She will not do it any other way. I have tried for the last 18 months and we are getting nowhere with it. I know others who have tried and got thier dogs working on a harness but never got thier dogs to pull anything near what they did on a collar. If i could get her to do it i would just to be safe and we are still trying now. Thankyou for reply I know it gets frowned upon everywhere we go and it does bother me. I also like to see unbaited pulls and we will bring up the new lad in the right way, however i think abbey is just to stubborn and set in her ways shes like an old woman She misses out on many comps and i hate it.
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Post by fitdogs on May 18, 2010 21:28:26 GMT
To be honest i think pulling on the collar and baiting are both bad ideas, i had a bitch that would not pull in harness just a collar regardless of the training i did with her so i stopped her pulling. I think over time pulling a tonne or other heavy weights on the collar will have some detrimental effect i cant see how it wouldn't. On the other hand its your dogs so you do what you believe is safe. But for me i don't like to see heavy pulling on the collar and i just don't like to see baiting. I have seen a dog grab anything it can when being baited to pull and it was not pretty can be dangerous. For an organisation like this i would consider implementing a harness rule as you will be in the spot light by the authorities, but thats just my thoughts not trying to be smart or cause arguments. But regardless it is impressive watching a dog pull heavy weights on the desire to catch the bait, just think there is a better way to do things.
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Post by owasocourin on May 18, 2010 22:29:08 GMT
I must say i agree with Anton and Fitdogs Not sure i agree with weight pull at all
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Post by anubis on May 19, 2010 6:43:03 GMT
I personaly wouldnt allow my dogs to pull on a collar that sort of weight.Just because you have no injurys now doesnt meen it wont happen..Time and ageing of the dog will tell. Im not keen on the a frame to be trufull..i think as the years go on you will start to see injury from constant pounding from the ground. Only my thoughts dont espect everyone to agree. I did like the idea of the 10 mile timed bike rides..i think this would test the dogs stamina and endurance better...as running comes more natural to the dogs.
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dodger
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by dodger on May 19, 2010 7:38:04 GMT
but would it make that much of a difference to a dog that only ever pulls in a collar once in a while as the only time dodger ever pulls is at a s.a.c.s comp as we are not fortunate to have a cart for him to pull or train on, i must admit i would rather he would pull in a harness but it would be something id need to train him to do as he cant stand wearing them at the moment
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eliza
New Member
Posts: 48
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Post by eliza on May 19, 2010 9:20:53 GMT
I agree with Anton about pulling on a collar. Our dogs pull with a harnass but with a bait. I think they will do it without a bait. Joe for sure because he loves weightpulling (and hate A frame).
And about the A frame. My Babs adores the A frame. But if we train for the A frame, she is allowed to do it once in every 2 or 3 weeks. And if we do it than we do it 3 times for 1 minute, and thats it.
Too much A frame is bad for the knees, elbows and so on. But don't forget the kidneys and liver inside the dog. Every time the dog hits the ground, the kidneys and liver also getting a smash ( i don't know if i use the right word now for it but i hope that you understand what i mean).
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Post by Shakka-Staffs on May 19, 2010 9:46:39 GMT
Some dogs i see wp on harnesses do so with a jerking motion this motion coupled with that weight cant be good for a dogs skeleton either. If my dog jerked like that then i rekon its worse than my dog pulling on a collar without jerking. So i think there are arguments for and against both. Im not going to say that pulling on a collar is not a bad idea but i know the kind of weights my dog is pulling is proboblly ok for her. I agree a frame is also very bad for joints. While 10 mile bike rides and the such are brilliant for sure to test indurance they should never be brought into competition ever as this is a test of the owner and not just the dog. I think a good test is half the body weight of dog pulled over the maximum distance say 200m in 120 seconds to win. The dog who pulls furthest or completes the 200 in quickest time to win.
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Post by oldetyme on May 19, 2010 10:15:08 GMT
as regards to a-frame, A simple solution would be to run some kind of rubber crash mats (like the green ones we used to have at school) under the a-frame , extending out, about 4ft both ends, problem solved. i think a-frame is an important test as regards to agility, activity, strength and stamina. i also believe that drag pulling over distance would be better for our dogs and their would be a higher success rate than there is with conventional weight pull. i also would like to see tug o war over five minutes with three judges so if a match is not won within that time, then it goes to the judges and they judge for which dog put up the most fight. this would stop the matches going on too long and becoming boring also you would get more matches in. dogs would be matched at their weight with an acceptance of a pound either way. sorry for rambling.
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Post by Shakka-Staffs on May 19, 2010 10:22:17 GMT
I dont think the 3 judges idea on tug o war is a bad one at all.
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Post by anubis on May 19, 2010 10:25:24 GMT
Good points guys...i agree shakka it would be hard to implement the 10 mile bike ride for many reasons...one being having the track to bike on as you say are the owners up to it..me personaly could do the ten miles on foot as i do it most weekends..but on a bike lol i havent beeen on a bike for years so i would probably struggle...Maybe 200-300 meter lure racing or longer. Good point about the mats oldtyme or maybe sand pits each side.This making push off harder work.
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Post by oldetyme on May 19, 2010 10:28:16 GMT
Judging tug o war over 5 mins would encourage handlers to get the most out of their dog, rather than sitting back and expecting a long drawn out affair which can become like watching gold fish in a bowl. pound for pound with an acceptance of a pound either way would help to make more matches rather than pound for pound only.
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Post by oldetyme on May 19, 2010 10:43:43 GMT
Anubis, sand pits would be great if you own the land, would be a bit harder but it would be the same for all. i think crash matts is more realistic if we are using someone elses land. those old style green crash matts do absorb a lot of impact, not sure if or where you can still get them!
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Post by bullrover on May 19, 2010 10:56:29 GMT
I personaly wouldnt allow my dogs to pull on a collar that sort of weight.Just because you have no injurys now doesnt meen it wont happen..Time and ageing of the dog will tell. Im not keen on the a frame to be trufull..i think as the years go on you will start to see injury from constant pounding from the ground. Only my thoughts dont espect everyone to agree. I did like the idea of the 10 mile timed bike rides..i think this would test the dogs stamina and endurance better...as running comes more natural to the dogs. Definitely agree with that, I think both weight pull and A frame could cause or advance joint problems. I prefer to condition the dog at a steady trotting gait (not bounding) over medium to long distances which works really well in hilly or mountain areas. I think that the real deep fitness comes from the long distance work. The only other conditioning I do is a bit of Spring pole which is also a bit of a reward and fun for the dog as well as conditioning. If you could get a tread or slat mill to record the distance over a given period of time that may be a way of having a longer stamina test for those handlers who can't cover the distance with their dog.
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Post by oldetyme on May 19, 2010 11:06:29 GMT
if you have the correct crash Matt's, then there's no reason why a-frame should be hard on the joints. and if you have more rounds, say 3 or 5, then that would be good for testing stamina on show day in a short space of time, where going on a long bike ride or running on a treadmill for half an hour or more for each dog, just would not be practical. A long distance bike ride would be great to do and would be a good test on some other day, other than the normal sacs days.
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Post by anton on May 19, 2010 11:18:25 GMT
Some dogs i see wp on harnesses do so with a jerking motion this motion coupled with that weight cant be good for a dogs skeleton either Yes it is bad technique. Dont see the yanks pull like that. I see it happen mostly with people that bait though.
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Post by anton on May 19, 2010 11:47:07 GMT
i also would like to see tug o war over five minutes with three judges so if a match is not won within that time, then it goes to the judges and they judge for which dog put up the most fight. this would stop the matches going on too long and becoming boring also you would get more matches in. dogs would be matched at their weight with an acceptance of a pound either way. sorry for rambling. in belgium and netherlands most tow matches are not pound for pound at all. What are you trying to show with tug of war? I dont really know what a 5 minute tug (if decided by judges) proves.
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Post by oldetyme on May 19, 2010 12:08:25 GMT
tug o war would be strength, tenacity,fight and determination, this would be best tested with everything else being equal i.e. weight. as for time, five or even ten Min's on athletic days would suffice as time is always an issue, it just would not be practical for matches lasting half an hour or more, bringing in the judges means there's more focus on fight as well as just holding out, making it more intense. I'm not sure i can see a reason for putting a 35lb dog up against a 40lb dog. what would that prove!
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Post by anton on May 19, 2010 12:12:42 GMT
tug o war would be strength, tenacity and determination, this would be best tested with everything else being equall i.e. weight. as for time, five or even ten mins on athletic days would suffice as time is always an issue, it just would not be praticle for matches lasting half an hour or more, bringing in the judges means there's more focus on fight as well as just holding out, making it more intense. i'm not sure i can see a reason for putting a 35lb dog up against a 40lb dog. what would that prove! I've noticed that when both dogs are tied to a pole the weight difference isnt that big of a factor. I think tug of war like humans do it, drag your opponnent over the centre line, is wroth considering. I think that would happen much quicker. What you could do is have a couple pulleys behind the dogs, then connect the dogs to that same line. So that when one goes backwards the other will be able to move fowardsa little bit (but they can never reach each other because the distance stays the same). That way you coudl sya, if one goes over the middle they have lost. (or if they let go).
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Post by oldetyme on May 19, 2010 12:22:06 GMT
there is still the strength of jaw and neck factor which generally speaking would be an advantage to a dog weighing more ,even if the are connected to a pole. as for dogs pulling over line, even more reason to be pound for pound.
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Post by anubis on May 19, 2010 12:32:16 GMT
Anubis, sand pits would be great if you own the land, would be a bit harder but it would be the same for all. i think crash matts is more realistic if we are using someone elses land. those old style green crash matts do absorb a lot of impact, not sure if or where you can still get them! fare point mate..just trying to frow ideas in the pot for others to build on. Matts would be ok as long as they dont become wet....maybe some with more grip.Im sure you could still get them.I know the ones your on about.I remember kicking shit out of each other in karate at school lol on them.That was a few years ago mind lol.
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Post by anton on May 19, 2010 12:48:53 GMT
there is still the strength of jaw and neck factor which generally speaking would be an advantage to a dog weighing more ,even if the are connected to a pole. as for dogs pulling over line, even more reason to be pound for pound. yes that was my point. If you do it like that you will get sorter matches and it will make more sense to do it pound for pound. Also you could level the weight out by giving the lighter dog some extra weight on his holding line.
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Post by oldetyme on May 19, 2010 14:59:42 GMT
i dont think we are miles apart here! why not say have a ten minute match where a dog wins either by pulling other dog over line or one dog dropping the bait and it after ten minutes there is no winner, then it goes to the judges!!! pound for pound with an exception of a pound either way.
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Post by oldetyme on May 19, 2010 15:06:14 GMT
Anubis, yeah, i remember we used to roll kids up in them and kick the shit out of them, ah,those were the days. ;D
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Post by oldetyme on May 19, 2010 15:09:25 GMT
i remember them matts in other places too and we'd have to kick shit out of each other!!!!!
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Post by anton on May 19, 2010 15:50:35 GMT
i dont think we are miles apart here! why not say have a ten minute match where a dog wins either by pulling other dog over line or one dog dropping the bait and it after ten minutes there is no winner, then it goes to the judges!!! pound for pound with an exception of a pound either way. I'd compromise to that. I'd still like to see if its possible to do some sort of weight compensation. Because for example the mainland TOW events we have are are tournament style (like k-1 or tennis) so you have more and more matches under your belt as you progress. This makes it an even greater test for character & endurance. In SBTSC ToW events the cutoff point is 20 minutes. But they are called ties. What would the judges be looking for to call a winner in case they need to?
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