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Post by fitdogs on May 21, 2010 8:36:38 GMT
Ask the upf guys or Nyankee for advice they seem to know the score when weight pulling. If your dog wont pull in a harness i dont think it should be allowed in the event, with a lot of training and patience i think most dogs will pull some weight in a harness, you may not win and may not have bragging rights but is it not the taking part that counts? Lol!
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Post by oldetyme on May 21, 2010 13:25:35 GMT
I'll never be convinced that pulling from the throat (windpipe) is a good as pulling from around the chest and shoulders! The thing with weight pull as opposed to a-frame or tug o war is it takes a lot of careful training and most people end up spoiling what could have been a very good puller because of their lack of knowledge and patience, i agree with fit dogs, when he Say's most dogs will pull some weight in a harness, the thing to do is when your at a comp and you know your dogs limit, when you reach that limit, ask if you can add just a little more weight for your next pull and pull out weather your dog pulls it or not and then repeat at next event, you may not end up with the best puller in the country but you can improve on your p.b. which is still a major form of success. some dogs will try and bite their lead as you walk them up for their pull and may even try to bite their handler, i have heard this put down to frustration, I'm not convinced, if in training your dog does this and you are in a safe place, let them off their lead and if they run off with their head down, then i think you should except this sport is not for your dog and you should not try and force them to do anything they don't want to do. Again this is one reason why i prefer tug o war and a-frame as these activities are more natural sports for our dogs, dogs don't require any training as such, just the opportunity to have a go, and the dog either does it or it doesn't.
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Post by leighandapple on May 21, 2010 21:45:55 GMT
some dogs will try and bite their lead as you walk them up for their pull and may even try to bite their handler, i have heard this put down to frustration, I'm not convinced,
Biting the lead (and definatley biting the handler) is not normal and should not be tolerated. The reason could be for different reasons though (frustration or just not being taught manners).
if in training your dog does this and you are in a safe place, let them off their lead and if they run off with their head down, then i think you should except this sport is not for your dog and you should not try and force them to do anything they don't want to do.
I wouldn't let them off the lead if they bite the lead (or the handler) as this will just teach the dog that they get what they want by biting.
Again this is one reason why i prefer tug o war and a-frame as these activities are more natural sports for our dogs, dogs don't require any training as such, just the opportunity to have a go, and the dog either does it or it doesn't. [/quote]
That seems to be the difference with dog sports here in the UK compared to other countries, people do not want to spend the time training their dogs to do things. If it doesn't do it then just give up.
Bull breeds are absolutly fantastic athlethes which compete at a top level world wide in all manner of sports from French Ring Sport, Hearding Trails, Weight Pull etc. Here in the UK not that many people do things that takes training to compete in.
This is just my opinion.
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Post by oldetyme on May 21, 2010 22:11:36 GMT
speaking from my own experience with harry, he has shown great ability but seems to have reached a point where he seems to be going backwards, maybe it is something i have done wrong in training, for me its not about just giving up as I'm more than willing to put time into training but i do wonder if his heart is really in it, i don't wish to make him do something he doesn't want to do as that would never work anyway. i would love to carry on pulling with him but breaking him of the habit of going for the lead seems impossible and he appears stressed.
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Post by leighandapple on May 21, 2010 23:00:45 GMT
My comments weren't a pop at you mate just comments in general.
IMO the best way to stop a dog biting the lead is to first teach them to leave on command. Then never let them get away with it e.g as soon as they start doing it give the leave command. I've found the best way to stop an unwanted behavier is to reward for them stopping/not doing it rather than punishment for doing it.
If he's getting frustrated go back to where he's comfortable in his training and take it slowly, making it fun for him (praise, treats etc). Harry's a great puller and I beleave there's much more in him with the right training.
Next time we meet up we'll have a chat about pulling.
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Post by owasocourin on May 22, 2010 6:25:55 GMT
I think this is the big problem Leigh and apple. The days we have here a not real tests for the dogs. They are fun days. There is not the serious intention to really progress the dogs or the days. The sports of other breeds are far more testing, herding trials, husky racing etc. We are pretending to be testing our dogs. The Dutch are the standard i believe we should aspire too. The DSA trials are much better. If we went down to 2 days a year and we had less dogs also this would be fine by me. Quality not quantity is the key. I will not attend any more 'fun days' and if anyone is interested in really testing performance, endurance and stamina please contact me and we will seee if we can produce a day say twice a year. Its not that these fun days are not any good, they were a good start to get the ball rolling, but they are not a real test of your animal at all.
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Post by southern-staffords on May 22, 2010 7:16:26 GMT
I think this is the big problem Leigh and apple. The days we have here a not real tests for the dogs. They are fun days. There is not the serious intention to really progress the dogs or the days. The sports of other breeds are far more testing, herding trials, husky racing etc. We are pretending to be testing our dogs. The Dutch are the standard i believe we should aspire too. The DSA trials are much better. If we went down to 2 days a year and we had less dogs also this would be fine by me. Quality not quantity is the key. I will not attend any more 'fun days' and if anyone is interested in really testing performance, endurance and stamina please contact me and we will seee if we can produce a day say twice a year. Its not that these fun days are not any good, they were a good start to get the ball rolling, but they are not a real test of your animal at all. How the fuck is herding a test for our types of dogs? ? like i said on the phone find a venue where you can do all these "challenging" events. Shame you wont be attending any more "fun days" neil, The days are about having a laugh and getting out with the mutts a few take it a bit too seriously but on the whole lots like the social side to them too seeing friendly faces etc, what would you change to what already happens? laters.
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Post by anubis on May 22, 2010 8:16:29 GMT
I personaly dont think you can simulate real testing, work...so these will always be just fun day which is cool.Atleast the dogs are getting out and having fun with there owners thats what its about.
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Post by owasocourin on May 22, 2010 10:44:41 GMT
Herding is not a test? i didnt suggest we should be herding but Dianne Jessop could teach us a thing or two about control and obediance, having many herding titles with her Pit bulls. The thing is mate i want see these dogs working, not doing the tasks they are doing at the MO. You are doing your thing with Margate and it is like you say a good social, but if i only wanted mates id join Face Boook. No need to get on the defensive Lee, your days are spot on if thats what your looking for, im just saying i need to find more. I will try to find a venue and will limit the number of dogs so we can test the dogs more thoroughly. You know you would be welcome you doughnut. I think there should more to our dogs than prey drive. Im not taking it too seriously Lee, i just think at the mo its not being taken seriously enough.
Glen you may not be able to replicate the pit, etc, and in no way would i want to but there are many more areas to explore with endurance and stamina as the base of the tasks. I agree having fun with your dogs is nice, but thats all it is, nice.
See you soon, Neil.
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Post by anubis on May 22, 2010 11:15:59 GMT
Dont know if you remember Neil but i was saying the same thing a few weeks ago on another forum about testing for brain in a dog...i would like to see more of this,obedience testing etc...as i see it at the mo you guys are just testing for prey drive everything is baited. The a frame dogs are baited to go over the top,same as weight pull and the lure machine its all baited which only tests one thing prey drive,I agree there is a whole wider scope to there abilities.This is why i go out in the fields and test my dogs on my own i know what there made of and not made of.
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Post by bobslurchers on May 22, 2010 11:59:45 GMT
I have been watching this thread with interest, i had thought of commenting sooner but decided to see what others had to say first. I am not replying specificaly to anyones comments as there are so many i am just giving my view. We have only recently become involved with the whole weight pulling thing so i can only tell my experiences to date. I (now) have two dogs who both have wide collars for being walked on and also harnesses for any type of weight pulling. Quite early i realised when taking park in the athletic dog events that my two were unsure of the weightpull harnesses we were loaned to compete with (as i have insisted they always pull on a harness), as they had been learning to pull previosley on more standard harnesses (for hill walking and running with me in tow). I think the extra straps over their bums the spacer bar and the location of the towing eye all confused them, when they first wore the harneses they just wandered around looking like they had been told off! With some perseverance with the dog scooter they quickly got the hang of what the harnesses were for. I like the idea of weightpull but will let my two try with their new harnesses and see what they make of it, althogh i think they are more likely to enjoy drag pulling (as its more like the scootering they are used to). I have had to ban my two from pulling on their collars as otherwise i end up in knots with them on my way to take them scootering as they get exited, pull and trip me up. Although i have noticed they tend to pull more on a collar rather than a harness e.g. if they are tired from scootering on the way back if i run with them on lead they will still try to pull on collars whaen they are bored with the harnesses Some more info (think someone mentioned it earlier): the horse collar is a solid ring with padding below rather than a bendy collar arrangement specificaly designed to alow the horses to pull more weight without being strangled. In my mind this horse collar arrangement is more similar to some of the american WP harnesses i have seen with what looks like pipe lagging with tape around the front of the harness, something solid to give stability but also comfort. More info here on horse collar design- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_collar
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Post by oldetyme on May 22, 2010 15:10:41 GMT
My comments weren't a pop at you mate just comments in general. IMO the best way to stop a dog biting the lead is to first teach them to leave on command. Then never let them get away with it e.g as soon as they start doing it give the leave command. I've found the best way to stop an unwanted behavior is to reward for them stopping/not doing it rather than punishment for doing it. If he's getting frustrated go back to where he's comfortable in his training and take it slowly, making it fun for him (praise, treats etc). Harry's a great puller and I beleave there's much more in him with the right training. Next time we meet up we'll have a chat about pulling. hi Leigh, i know you wasn't having a pop mate, I've always believed it is something i have done wrong in training and if i could find someone who understands more about dog psychology and dog training then maybe harry would be a great puller. i wouldn't mind taking you up on your offer on that chat and seeing if anything can be done. cheers Ian.
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Post by oldetyme on May 22, 2010 15:18:44 GMT
leigh are you going to run any weight pull training days at aces?
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Post by owasocourin on May 22, 2010 16:28:00 GMT
Dont know if you remember Neil but i was saying the same thing a few weeks ago on another forum about testing for brain in a dog...i would like to see more of this,obedience testing etc...as i see it at the mo you guys are just testing for prey drive everything is baited. The a frame dogs are baited to go over the top,same as weight pull and the lure machine its all baited which only tests one thing prey drive,I agree there is a whole wider scope to there abilities.This is why i go out in the fields and test my dogs on my own i know what there made of and not made of. I do remember Glen, and your right. I too use the fields for my dogs but feel i need other tasks as the fields(lamping) dont suit Lilys type entirely. The things you mentioned before, jumping, retrieving, etc, all obdience based are spot on for part of the dogs test. Still the endurance areas i would like to see pushed a little more seriously.
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Post by frank on May 22, 2010 16:46:25 GMT
I think this is the big problem Leigh and apple. The days we have here a not real tests for the dogs. They are fun days. There is not the serious intention to really progress the dogs or the days. The sports of other breeds are far more testing, herding trials, husky racing etc. We are pretending to be testing our dogs. The Dutch are the standard i believe we should aspire too. The DSA trials are much better. If we went down to 2 days a year and we had less dogs also this would be fine by me. Quality not quantity is the key. I will not attend any more 'fun days' and if anyone is interested in really testing performance, endurance and stamina please contact me and we will seee if we can produce a day say twice a year. Its not that these fun days are not any good, they were a good start to get the ball rolling, but they are not a real test of your animal at all. How the fuck is herding a test for our types of dogs? ? like i said on the phone find a venue where you can do all these "challenging" events. Shame you wont be attending any more "fun days" neil, The days are about having a laugh and getting out with the mutts a few take it a bit too seriously but on the whole lots like the social side to them too seeing friendly faces etc, what would you change to what already happens? laters. Neil lets face it, a real replacement for the "old" job will never be found then the real thing.And as this is luckily a illegal thing, you have to do it with what you are able to test. As you sound in your writing, if you where writing it to me I would feed attacked as Lee feels now clearly. You, Lee and Marek are great together, why not sit around the table and finetune it together. Nobody is waiting for YET another club I guess. I think it should be possible to create something together that maybe will come closer to a real test, but still will be a fun day. Why not keep a few normal fun days and one or two separate days for the diehards? But keep it under one flag!! If you wan't some help brainstorming about this, I offer to help you with this. Keep your lines closed, and don't fight openly on the forum. I think your both great people, and all together you can achieve great things. Your friend Frank
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Post by owasocourin on May 22, 2010 17:04:37 GMT
Hello Frank, i am not attacking Lee, he has done a brilliant job for the dogs. Hes energy is brilliant. I would love to talk to you about other events, but these days are not mine to change so i think i will have to do it at another venue and of coarse Lee is welcome, no question about that. He knows this.
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Post by frank on May 22, 2010 17:20:41 GMT
Hello Frank, i am not attacking Lee, he has done a brilliant job for the dogs. Hes energy is brilliant. I would love to talk to you about other events, but these days are not mine to change so i think i will have to do it at another venue and of coarse Lee is welcome, no question about that. He knows this. You probably didn't meen it as a attack, but lets say it different then, it does not sound like a compliment eighter ;-) But why not do it together? As for things like this you need a lot of people with their nose in the same direction. I know you and Lee as beeing friends, and if so you can not tell me that you can not discuss these things together. To get a group of serious people, who can compete at a higher level, you need people who are willing to train their dogs and to put time and energy in it. Then you can discuss the sports that you want to include in a show and try to plan everything smoothly. Voila, you have your sporting day, where even people who just want to have a fun day can compete in and a real competition where the people who train their dogs well will end up as winners. Neil maybe you can even take some sports under your wing and try to better it, and everybody will be happy I would guess. Just have all your separate job at the day, this splits the stress and keeps it fun for everybody. I hope that you can come together with this and just merge into one succesfull group and not again 2 separate groups added to the other already existing ones. Frank
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Post by owasocourin on May 22, 2010 18:15:39 GMT
Cheers Frank, its not ment to upset Lee. I have an opinion that when this all started it was for the futherment of fit Bull breeds. We should progress the events with the better understanding of fitness we have now, and produce more realistic events. The original idea i thought was to see who had the best bull breeds out there.
SACS is a brilliant meeting place. I have learned loads from there in the past and met top people such as yourself, but i just feel there is also a place for a more rigorus testing ground for future breeding stock etc. There is no reason why this would need to be under the same banner as SACS, and no offence ment by creating another, it would not be promoted and would be invite only. It would not be competition to either the SACS or Aces events. ATB, Neil.
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Post by frank on May 22, 2010 20:08:19 GMT
Cheers Frank, its not ment to upset Lee. I have an opinion that when this all started it was for the futherment of fit Bull breeds. We should progress the events with the better understanding of fitness we have now, and produce more realistic events. The original idea i thought was to see who had the best bull breeds out there. SACS is a brilliant meeting place. I have learned loads from there in the past and met top people such as yourself, but i just feel there is also a place for a more rigorus testing ground for future breeding stock etc. There is no reason why this would need to be under the same banner as SACS, and no offence ment by creating another, it would not be promoted and would be invite only. It would not be competition to either the SACS or Aces events. ATB, Neil. Something like a Irondog, but then tougher? That can be real fun. If done right it CAN fill maybe a gap. But it will be tough to organise, and I wonder how many people are willing to train that hard. Still I think if the events on the SACS days are maybe changed a bit and added a few more could fill that gap easily. And together you already have some people who can organise it, you have a venue, and already a group of dedicated followers. To chang the peoples view ab out how things could be done takes just some time and maybe extra trainingdays. Thats what also happened in Holland and Belgium.
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Post by anton on May 22, 2010 21:21:08 GMT
Another Frank from over here is organising something pretty hardcore that we are training for.
this event over 2 days will have:
40 km bicycle ride manwork tracking 2.5km swim 2.5km run 100m sprint tug of war hangtime weightpull wallclimb obedience AND far jump All dogs have to participate in all events.
(This is the IBBC Iron Dog and will be held in oktober)
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Post by frank on May 22, 2010 21:55:10 GMT
Another Frank from over here is organising something pretty hardcore that we are training for. this event over 2 days will have: 40 km bicycle ride manwork tracking 2.5km swim 2.5km run 100m sprint tug of war hangtime weightpull wallclimb obedience AND far jump All dogs have to participate in all events. (This is the IBBC Iron Dog and will be held in oktober) I must say that manwork for Bull and Terrier breeds is in my opinion a no go.
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Post by anubis on May 23, 2010 7:57:25 GMT
Dont know if you remember Neil but i was saying the same thing a few weeks ago on another forum about testing for brain in a dog...i would like to see more of this,obedience testing etc...as i see it at the mo you guys are just testing for prey drive everything is baited. The a frame dogs are baited to go over the top,same as weight pull and the lure machine its all baited which only tests one thing prey drive,I agree there is a whole wider scope to there abilities.This is why i go out in the fields and test my dogs on my own i know what there made of and not made of. I do remember Glen, and your right. I too use the fields for my dogs but feel i need other tasks as the fields(lamping) dont suit Lilys type entirely. The things you mentioned before, jumping, retrieving, etc, all obdience based are spot on for part of the dogs test. Still the endurance areas i would like to see pushed a little more seriously. Sounds good to me.....The idea is by testing in such tasks is to find the best dogs in the country...Then only the cream of the crop bred from best to best as it should be...there for producing quality athletic dogs. I look forward to hearing some of your ideas towards harder testing of the dogs. I like the idea of the long distance stuff myself.
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Post by anton on May 23, 2010 10:08:56 GMT
Another Frank from over here is organising something pretty hardcore that we are training for. this event over 2 days will have: 40 km bicycle ride manwork tracking 2.5km swim 2.5km run 100m sprint tug of war hangtime weightpull wallclimb obedience AND far jump All dogs have to participate in all events. (This is the IBBC Iron Dog and will be held in oktober) I must say that manwork for Bull and Terrier breeds is in my opinion a no go. I completly agree but its not why i brought this event up. Besides the manwork it could be a great event for Neil to test his dogs a bit deeper & wider. (I'm sure if you just go and refuse to do the manwork you can still do the other events, just wont be able to become champion). I will be there to report for DogSportNews. PM me if you want to have more info on this event Neil (or any others).
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Post by oldetyme on May 23, 2010 10:21:57 GMT
i agree with frank, manwork in these times wouldn't be a good idea, tracking maybe fun but has nothing to with athletics or breeding good bull terriers!!!!!!!! setting some of this stuff up would be a logistical nightmare!!!! i would try to keep it more simple but pack more punch! A-frame, tug o war, sprint, drag pull and bike ride and repeat and maybe repeat again.
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Post by anton on May 23, 2010 10:34:56 GMT
Like I said, not my show, not my rules. I dont do manwork either. Neil said he wanted to test his dog wider (and deeper) this is an opportunity. Thats all.
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Post by jaysteph on May 23, 2010 11:23:41 GMT
so what type of endurance events would be at your days neil?? and on obdience based trials would you be looking at somthing like Schutzhund trials??
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Post by owasocourin on May 23, 2010 12:46:12 GMT
There are many ways to tests endurance, Arab horses are run over a certain distance then heart rate monitored amongst other rigorous tests. The heart rate must return to normal within a certain time. We can lure on a continous loop for a mile and then time the heart rate back to its resting rate. Finding the fittest animals. Obedience also has many areas. You can see that to test properly the amount of dogs needs to be reduced. We can then see which dogs excel in diffent disciplines. And who are the true atheletes with brains too
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Post by owasocourin on May 23, 2010 13:08:32 GMT
Anton, thanks for your help mate.
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Post by playerman on May 23, 2010 15:05:43 GMT
Depends where you go in the UK to train your dogs in Weight Pulling there is only a handful ov Judge's & trainers in the Uk who no there stuff about weight pulling others have jumped on the sport & may be get it banned for pulling on collars & baiting....Its about time people in the Uk STOPPED Pulling on collars & baiting them....There is no need for it apart from the owners ego's IMO!!!!
Yes it does take alot longer to train your dog in a harness time effort & shit loads of patience but the more you put in the more you get out....
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Post by Jessica on May 23, 2010 15:40:38 GMT
Depends where you go in the UK to train your dogs in Weight Pulling there is only a handful ov Judge's & trainers in the Uk who no there stuff about weight pulling others have jumped on the sport & may be get it banned for pulling on collars & baiting....Its about time people in the Uk STOPPED Pulling on collars & baiting them....There is no need for it apart from the owners ego's IMO!!!! Yes it does take alot longer to train your dog in a harness time effort & shit loads of patience but the more you put in the more you get out.... I agree i think it takes one bad bit of press and weight pull will be banned - the collar pulling and baiting is not good for anyone. To be honest i didn't think of you guys - i guess its because you are up north and so far away its easy to forget about ya! I know you guys know what you are doing - there is no doubt of the professionalism at your shows that is clear. If you were to run anything down down here we would def come.
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