matt
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Post by matt on Jun 18, 2009 21:22:33 GMT
explain why mate, but i was on about stormer.
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Post by martinl on Jun 18, 2009 21:25:16 GMT
My old dog benn's sire was EBT & Dam a SBT and he turned out thick as pigs shit, stubbern and a mule and about as much drive as a engine less vehicle.. great lapdog tho lol
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matt
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Post by matt on Jun 18, 2009 21:26:34 GMT
i think it depends on what two lines are used martin.
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Post by martinl on Jun 18, 2009 21:31:09 GMT
yeah i kno.. was just making another pointless post lol
x
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Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jun 18, 2009 21:31:26 GMT
Dont know about stomers Sire and Dam mate, i am however really interested if people feel the breeds are equally as good as each other when both breeds are bred correctly. Therefore could be cross bred. I really love both breeds and have been fortunate to know and own quality ebts, which are equal in all ways if not superior in some, to alot of good staffords around today.Therefore they could enhance Stafford line. Like i said i am really interested in the correct type not a breed stamp so this type of breeding would not concern me if done best to best.
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matt
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Post by matt on Jun 18, 2009 21:32:34 GMT
not pointless my friend, this is interesting to me, do you have anymore info, ie the dogs used?
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matt
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Post by matt on Jun 18, 2009 21:35:45 GMT
i am interested to neil, werent ebt blood used in the irish and pit lines?, anything any good in the pit was used wasnt it???
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Post by martinl on Jun 18, 2009 21:36:08 GMT
all i kno is(going back 15years nearly) that the dam was a Blue non kc reg, and the sire was brindle and white and KC reg'd
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matt
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Post by matt on Jun 18, 2009 21:38:40 GMT
what characteristics do you think he took more of?
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matt
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Post by matt on Jun 18, 2009 21:41:28 GMT
were would you stand on this MR T?? you know your way around a good line of staffords, and you lyndon, what do you think?(when your on here) sorry , or anyone with an opinion.
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Post by martinl on Jun 18, 2009 21:44:25 GMT
what characteristics do you think he took more of? id say from what ive heard about EBT, then EBT, quite stubborn and took alot of training.. but ive also heard people say how easy it was to train theres..
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matt
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Post by matt on Jun 18, 2009 21:45:49 GMT
yeh mine seems very intelegent, but then again kate does all the puppy training bit.
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Post by jaysteph on Jun 18, 2009 21:47:27 GMT
My old dog benn's sire was EBT & Dam a SBT and he turned out thick as pigs shit, stubbern and a mule and about as much drive as a engine less vehicle.. great lapdog tho lol we used to have e ebt x stb cross he was a hundred mile an hour best guard dog ive ever met and such a high prey drive wish we still had him now as think he would of done well a sacs days but he now lives on a farm as at the time we did not have the space to keep him still miss that dog now
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Post by dog on Jun 18, 2009 21:50:03 GMT
ooohh, that's a controversial one and this could run and run but my feeling would be that the EBT has proven itself as being a good addition to lines of fighting dogs but cases of them proving themselves as a pure bred dog are very rare. The head shape generally doesn't allow for massive jaw power like the Stafford or Pit Bull but the rest of the make up (of quality EBT's) certainly does lend itself to the pit.
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matt
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Post by matt on Jun 18, 2009 21:52:44 GMT
so where do you stand on the first cross.owen
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Post by dog on Jun 18, 2009 21:52:55 GMT
what characteristics do you think he took more of? id say from what ive heard about EBT, then EBT, quite stubborn and took alot of training.. but ive also heard people say how easy it was to train theres.. I've found them to be very intelligent and also strong willed, you have to work out how to make them want to do things and they'll gladly do it. If they don't want to do it you can't force them...I like them, I'm a stubborn ******* too.
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Post by martinl on Jun 18, 2009 21:56:43 GMT
this was benn.. what would ytou say he looks more like? Excuse the gut, he was 14years old and this was taken 3weeks befor he died..
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Post by jaysteph on Jun 18, 2009 21:59:03 GMT
i.m.o staff mate i will dig out the pics of my ebtxstaff 2 moz he was black brindle and looked mor like ebt i.m.o he was a big old boy
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Post by dog on Jun 18, 2009 21:59:36 GMT
He still looked in very good nick for his age. I don't think there's much to show he had EBT in him.
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Post by martinl on Jun 18, 2009 22:00:15 GMT
yeah.. i think if'd known that then he'd of been a better dog, but.. i was like 4-5years old ll.. he was perfect for what my dad got him for.. a friendly, companion for me.. he did his job in life and he did it well
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Post by martinl on Jun 18, 2009 22:02:47 GMT
He still looked in very good nick for his age. I don't think there's much to show he had EBT in him. yeah he was always in godd nick like.. his head size and eyes was more EBT.. and i think he had a bit more bulk like his dad Look at the lugs on him lol
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Post by dog on Jun 18, 2009 22:06:10 GMT
so where do you stand on the first cross.owen So much depends on the two dogs used and the quality of the pups produced. I'm also sure you can get a top quality dog and a crap dog in the same litter or a whole litter of either. Breeding two dogs of different type is always going to have uncertain results. Nothing ventured, nothing gained though, some of the best dogs I've ever seen have been crosses.
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matt
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Post by matt on Jun 18, 2009 22:32:35 GMT
enjoying this but must sleep, gotta get up at 5, i must be nuts, this is gonna drive me mad at work, night.
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Post by stefan on Jun 19, 2009 5:30:29 GMT
An interesting write up:
The problem with inbred dogs having the stereotype of "plug" and scatterbred dogs having the reputation of "performers" is a problem resulting from kennel blind and uninformed breeders in my estimation. Let me explain further.
Most breeders of a family get so involved in the breeding of their family and the better success that they experience with a family bred effort, that they lose the ability in some measure to properly evaluate their animals. They also have the positive experience of any dog in the family still producing the average of the line. These filial principles apply whether breeding great dogs that produce downgrades of themselves, or poor dogs who produce dogs far superior to themselves. The knowledge of the true principles of being able to produce some pretty good dogs from a line wherein some good traits exist at the foundation, in essence; handicaps many family breeders from elevating the average of his line.
The scatterbreeder; in general, does not grasp completely the principles of how to breed a performance animal. Oh sure, he can get a result on the front end, but then struggles to understand why the dogs cannot produce with any acceptable level of consistency. Outcross dogs who are excellent producers are a rarity. I'm sure we can all think of some, but they are exceptions, not the rule.
The wise breeder will use linebreeding extensively, and upgrade the line to its genetic potential with stringent selection. This involves excluding the majority of dogs from the line as brood candidates. The wise breeder will also make an occasional well planned outcross, but only with the purpose in mind of upgrading the core bloodline. Unfortuantely, we as humans seem to get stuck in one gear or another, and struggle with the ability to breed performance animals to the highest level possible. If one will study the breeding patterns of Bert Clouse in depth, he will see one of the most masterful examples of linebreeding a family and keeping them competitive. The family only degenerated after Bert left the game for a season to play with fowl. He never really recaptured the essence of his original family with the latter day Clouse dogs. However, even the latter day Clouse dogs of a lesser quality made a great outcross for many other strains.
The real problem with breeding a family successfully is that it takes more than a lifetime to do it. As the great breeder Dr. Leon F. Whitney said "man's life is too short to make a great impact on any breed". With that in mind, the best breeders will leave a successor, and pass the torch with the understanding of how to continue perpetuating the family.
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Post by frank on Jun 19, 2009 5:40:10 GMT
Cheers Frank, he has always been a favorite of mine to look at, i really do like the ebtxsbt dogs. I wonder how you feel about outcrossing in order to achieve a higher amount of a certain quality, like drive from terriers etc. You see i have spoke to people in the past with very nice quality staffords, to put to my imo high quality ebt, but they would not due to the diffrent breeds! In truth i dont understand this, i understand its a scatter breeding, but surely lines can take really good traits from this practice. Was Stormer a freak, or a result of a well planned breeding practice. Certain EBT lines in my eyes must measure up to the top Stafford lines and are therefore worthy of the outcross. I for one am more interested in the correct type than the breed Be prepared for a tough debate m8 No time now, but will in the comming days come back on this ;D ;D ;D
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Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jun 19, 2009 8:10:01 GMT
Im prepared Franky boy! Stefan i agree entirly with the article above but would you or anyone else consider the EBT as your occasional outcross if you thought the EBT as superior to your line of stafford and superior to any possible Stafford out cross out there? Also in reply to Dogs comment that jaw strength would be lost i think this would have no impact on the quality of the dog as the EBT jaw is more than sufficent in strength.
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Post by dog on Jun 19, 2009 8:43:13 GMT
In reply to Dogs comment that jaw strength would be lost i think this would have no impact on the quality of the dog as the EBT jaw is more than sufficent in strength. Sufficient yes but also less than the Stafford or Pit, a cross would in theory not lose much in terms of Jaw strength and Stormer would be an example of that.
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Post by martinl on Jun 19, 2009 9:11:12 GMT
i think dependant on the lines of the EBT it would be a good outcross, and also i think it depends on the duties it would be asked to carry out, wether it be field sports or athletics..
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Post by stefan on Jun 19, 2009 10:40:16 GMT
Im prepared Franky boy! Stefan i agree entirly with the article above but would you or anyone else consider the EBT as your occasional outcross if you thought the EBT as superior to your line of stafford and superior to any possible Stafford out cross out there? Also in reply to Dogs comment that jaw strength would be lost i think this would have no impact on the quality of the dog as the EBT jaw is more than sufficent in strength. I have the desire to keep the breed pure. The only thing that distinguishes one breed from another is the willingness of people to breed towards a common goal, since all domesticated dogs are the same species. If that isn't done, the breed looses its original identity.
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Post by stefan on Jun 19, 2009 11:03:14 GMT
i am interested to neil, werent ebt blood used in the irish and pit lines?, anything any good in the pit was used wasnt it??? The following write up is copy/paste from a website. R.B's Ch Psycho was indeed a 1/16th EBT as both Rowdy and Kilwickie lad were straight crosses. The result of the Rowdy x Kilwickie Lad mating resulted in the late Tom Haughey's North Star, which you can find in Ch Psycho's 5th generation and in a litter brother called "Blunder's Lad" that went to Gerry McIntyre the brother of Jerome who once owned the Irish Black Jack dog that M.D brought over. Since Psycho was a 1/16th, by mating him to stafford bitches it would dilute the small amount of EBT blood in that line and it raises the question : When can a breed be considered to be "pure bred" ?. Have in mind that men like Bill Boylan and other old timers has admitted in the later years that they lied about the pedigrees of the dogs as the Kennel Club demanded that they had a written ped so they could be admitted into the KC, and the fact that virtually no written pedigree existed prior of the breed being recognized into the KC. Here is an example: Vic Crew's dog "Burrage Mefisto" was out of Brinstock Attraction, Sired by Brigand's Gunner. Gunners sire and Dam were Tackle x Ch.lady Eve and Attraction's Sire was Game Laddie Sired by Game Lad, the ped beyond this point was listed as Billston Bill x Sedgley Queen and the remaining sections were blank. Now the interesting part, in the beginning of the 80's, Mr Boylan claimed in a interview that it was common practise that local towns and districts would be linked up with imaginary names of dogs,like Billston Bill, Darlaston Biddy and Sedgely Queen, he also claimed that the pedigree of Game Lad was made up in precisely that manner and was registered in the KC with that faked ped. Says a bit about any credibility of pedigrees of the early dogs and these dogs could have had just as much EBT blood in them as R.B's Ch Psycho, which bring us back to the question, when can a breed be considered to be pure bred? The definition of Purebred is by websters as following: "Of or belonging to a recognized strain established by breeding individuals of unmixed lineage over many generations." How many generations would it take to be considered a "Pure" breed? Now I'm sure that unless new infusion of EBT blood is made the Northford/ Psycho strain would fall in under this definition, but I'm sure that some would oppose my view on this lol. Stevie B's Ch Stormer was however never successfully mated with any Staffords and cannot be said to ever have formed a strain. The only successful mating was with an APBT from Reid's Skipper called "Tess", which produced only 4 pups. Shaunyboyz has always claimed that their "Bullit" were a son of Stormer and a Stafford called Kimba, but when you ask the previous owners of the Stormer dog they will tell you that no Stafford was ever successfully mated with this dog. If you consider the "Flynn" Strain as a pure breed, what makes it any different than the Psycho dogs? The Lynchauhaun dog that F. Gordon had was from dubious background and had no written pedigree at all as he was stolen in the UK by a sailor and sold to F. Gordon. I'll get off my soap box now lol, but it is nice to see someone with some knowledge regarding these so called "Irish" Staffords on this board. May you have a Merry X mas and a prosperous Happy New Year Cooper Win or Lose We'll have some booze The Drifter
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