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Post by wybren on Jun 19, 2009 11:04:55 GMT
I have the desire to keep the breed pure. The only thing that distinguishes one breed from another is the willingness of people to breed towards a common goal, since all domesticated dogs are the same species. If that isn't done, the breed looses its original identity. As long as there is enough genetic material in the stafford population it should not be necessary to outcross with another breed. Possibly in the (far) future it will be needed. Then I think that under strict conditions (like a maximum percentage of foreign blood) it could be accepted. I can imagine certain EBT lines(not the current show bred lines!) could be used i that case, no problem. |
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Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jun 19, 2009 11:35:32 GMT
Im prepared Franky boy! Stefan i agree entirly with the article above but would you or anyone else consider the EBT as your occasional outcross if you thought the EBT as superior to your line of stafford and superior to any possible Stafford out cross out there? Also in reply to Dogs comment that jaw strength would be lost i think this would have no impact on the quality of the dog as the EBT jaw is more than sufficent in strength. I have the desire to keep the breed pure. The only thing that distinguishes one breed from another is the willingness of people to breed towards a common goal, since all domesticated dogs are the same species. If that isn't done, the breed looses its original identity. The pit dogs original identity was a pit dog 'type' and not a breed. If the dog was capable then thats what mattered, not whether it had rose ears etc. i gotta say thanks for all the replys, all are extremely interesting reading for myself |
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Post by quinlent on Jun 19, 2009 12:17:40 GMT
Here you make the biggest fault ever m8! And this is the whole point why we can not agree on this matter. You have the wrong idea about the gamedog. Sorry mate it is a late reply to this one but my job took my time and i had no room left to continue this discussion. Rather i have a right or wrong view on the matter of gameness is beyond the matter of this discussion. but before you say i am right or wrong i'll give you my idea about gameness. in a whole and gameness in specific situations. Gameness is an act of behaviour that excists in all living animals in some degree. So when i look at the evolutionary aspect of the game dog there was a start where gameness was not as far developped and training methods for this behaviour not yet discovered. I think you made a small mistake to talk about the end of the process emidiatly the ultimate Game dog. It took generation after generation to gain it and it was all done by real staffords. Maybe just as game as the ones we have today be they bred for conformation or for sports is besides the point as the beginning was not bred for the purpose of dogfighting Dogfighting was just one of those canine activity's that claimed it's own evolution of which our generation has seen the end result of that evolution process. And that is your refferation square and that by far does not cover the story> On the other hand it seems that you only need gameness for the gamedog but Gameness in for instance dog fighting is a tool to rely on in the pit and by that meaning made important. but from my point of view you need a huge package of fighting ability's (which rely on physics) and enough gameness to do the job and from the gambling part to rely on it will do the job even when it means death because it gave a last chance to win the match when the other dog didn't stay with his opponent. But when the gamest dog was killed by the best fighter it still was the dog that lost. so in the stituation of the gamedog be they stafford or pitbull it is not gameness that was the most important but the whole package the gameness and the physics was the goal. And gameness is a type of behaviour that developpes partly in genes and partly by enviromentand that depents on skills to survive. And exactly in this mix lays the fact that you loose it so fast as it is known. When a dog wins a batlle he did not prove gameness he had proved to be a winner. And the most succesfull dogmen in the history of fighting dogs had the skills to developp the right mix of enviroment fysics and gameness. So from my point of view a game dog is made. Cheers Mate and enjoy your weekend Marco |
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Post by anton on Jun 19, 2009 13:11:54 GMT
Gameness is an act of behaviour that excists in all living animals in some degree. So when i look at the evolutionary aspect of the game dog there was a start where gameness was not as far developped and training methods for this behaviour not yet discovered. Gameness as defined by still wanting to scratch even though she has no legs to walk on is not a natural behaviour to any degree. It was created by breeding game to game. Which animals show this behaviour? To go completly against their survival. (except mothers defending young ones etc) I've never read anywhere where a dogmen says gameness can be trained. The only training that happened were rolls with older dogs to train certain fighting styles. But mostly dogs were rolled to build confidence (against easy dogs) or test gameness (against harder opponents or multiple fresh opponents, one after the other). And this was in the states, with the pros, different days from the coal miners in the black country... I'm curious what gameness training methods you are reffering to. |
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Post by quinlent on Jun 19, 2009 13:49:28 GMT
Gameness is an act of behaviour that excists in all living animals in some degree. So when i look at the evolutionary aspect of the game dog there was a start where gameness was not as far developped and training methods for this behaviour not yet discovered. Gameness as defined by still wanting to scratch even though she has no legs to walk on is not a natural behaviour to any degree. It was created by breeding game to game. Which animals show this behaviour? To go completly against their survival. (except mothers defending young ones etc) I've never read anywhere where a dogmen says gameness can be trained. The only training that happened were rolls with older dogs to train certain fighting styles. But mostly dogs were rolled to build confidence (against easy dogs) or test gameness (against harder opponents or multiple fresh opponents, one after the other). And this was in the states, with the pros, different days from the coal miners in the black country... I'm curious what gameness training methods you are reffering to. you have allready written them down yourself mate But mostly dogs were rolled to build confidence (against easy dogs) This is a behaviour conditioning system the practical way the prospect is conditioned in his function and learns his way of succes a primary step in the developpement of the geneitc available drives that result in waht is known as gameness step 1 and then step 2 test gameness (against harder opponents or multiple fresh opponents, one after the other). This makes it happen that there is no defeat round per round and is a training to come up to scratch round after round. Coming up to scratch is a measurement for gameness! and is thus a trained quality. when you take a prospect @ day one and let him / her have defeat after defeat the gameness will not develop Marco |
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Post by anton on Jun 19, 2009 14:14:08 GMT
I guess on the lowest level this is just another nature vs nurture discussion, which is dead-end topic #2 right after which came first, chicken or the egg  (btw i choose chicken). and that means that a young prospect is either born knowing what defeat is or not. A game dog is the one born without that word in her dictionary. |
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Post by martinl on Jun 19, 2009 14:31:16 GMT
what word? Chicken or Egg?  |
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Post by anton on Jun 19, 2009 15:25:17 GMT
what word? Chicken or Egg? Chicken obviously. Never seen a Egg chicken out of something but ive seen an chicken put out an egg  |
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Post by wybren on Jun 19, 2009 16:29:40 GMT
I guess on the lowest level this is just another nature vs nurture discussion, which is dead-end topic #2 right after which came first, chicken or the egg (btw i choose chicken). and that means that a young prospect is either born knowing what defeat is or not. A game dog is the one born without that word in her dictionary. I do not find this a dead end topic at all. I see good arguments coming and the discussion is still open. It's not an I'm right, youre not course. They are still trying to convince themselfs. In the end they both can be right in some degree ;D Great stuff is coming ;D |
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Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jun 19, 2009 20:03:46 GMT
Got to say i agree with Marco 100%, it must require genetics, and nurture, the genetics must be bred for therefore these dogs are a creation, its not natural and therefore gameness must be created. We will never see it again but that does not mean our dogs do not have the foundations to be game, with selection and the means for it to be achieved again it could be. Do we really require it? in my opinion no, we have amongst us descendents of the most couragous animals in the world, and should honour there descendents by breeding highly confident, drivey and correctly constructed animals with solid temperment.
Todays dogs are more than sufficient at what we ask of them and with dogs such as Marcos and Risky's, Lyndons Ingles EBT's and Lonnsdales Bulldogs, we should admire great balance and conformation along with great drive and stable temperment, after all thats all that is required.
Concentrating on the head of the EBT is detrimental when breeding, concentrating on on single element of construction rather than the whole package in any animal is wrong, so maybe its a good thing the Game gene has gone ?
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Post by anton on Jun 19, 2009 20:53:15 GMT
I guess on the lowest level this is just another nature vs nurture discussion, which is dead-end topic #2 right after which came first, chicken or the egg (btw i choose chicken). and that means that a young prospect is either born knowing what defeat is or not. A game dog is the one born without that word in her dictionary. I do not find this a dead end topic at all. I see good arguments coming and the discussion is still open. It's not an I'm right, youre not course. They are still trying to convince themselfs. In the end they both can be right in some degree ;D Great stuff is coming ;D I'm not saying *This* discussion is a dead end, I was saying the nature vs nurture discussion is a dead end. I know neither marco or Frank needs to be convinced of their own argument... I wasn't trying to close the argument by any means (and there is no point in trying to that when Frank has made a promise to get back to it ;-) Not only both can be right, I can be righ too, not just Frank & Marco discussing here and the rest wathcing from the side lines... But yeah i agree great stuff |
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Post by anton on Jun 19, 2009 20:55:53 GMT
so maybe its a good thing the Game gene has gone ? Moot point, the fact is, if you can't test for gameness you lose it. So it doesnt matter whether its a good or bad thing. |
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Post by quinlent on Jun 19, 2009 21:10:22 GMT
my favourit dogs! 1. the dog all my dogs go back to Most important origin of Quinlent Ch. Kaluki Duke  best showdog Ch. Leatherwood Iron Mike  and the most impressive fighting dog for me China Man  I think also that these dogs share similarities Cheers Marco |
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Post by quinlent on Jun 19, 2009 21:15:08 GMT
Got to say i agree with Marco 100%, it must require genetics, and nurture, the genetics must be bred for therefore these dogs are a creation, its not natural and therefore gameness must be created. We will never see it again but that does not mean our dogs do not have the foundations to be game, with selection and the means for it to be achieved again it could be. Do we really require it? in my opinion no, we have amongst us descendents of the most couragous animals in the world, and should honour there descendents by breeding highly confident, drivey and correctly constructed animals with solid temperment. Todays dogs are more than sufficient at what we ask of them and with dogs such as Marcos and Risky's, Lyndons Ingles EBT's and Lonnsdales Bulldogs, we should admire great balance and conformation along with great drive and stable temperment, after all thats all that is required. Concentrating on the head of the EBT is detrimental when breeding, concentrating on on single element of construction rather than the whole package in any animal is wrong, so maybe its a good thing the Game gene has gone ? We indeed are thinking on the same level mate!! Cheers - Marco |
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Post by quinlent on Jun 19, 2009 21:22:17 GMT
I guess on the lowest level this is just another nature vs nurture discussion, which is dead-end topic #2 right after which came first, chicken or the egg (btw i choose chicken). and that means that a young prospect is either born knowing what defeat is or not. A game dog is the one born without that word in her dictionary. nature does not exist without nurture and there is nothing to nurture without nature it is not a dead end neither a beginning it is a proces with a beginning and an end and a new beginning that will go towards an end! the ultimate gamedog is not a beginning it is the end! Marco |
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Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jun 19, 2009 21:38:15 GMT
Who'd of thought big skinhead men with Bull terriers could put his much thought into something ey! lol
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Post by quinlent on Jun 19, 2009 21:44:20 GMT
Who'd of thought big skinhead men with Bull terriers could put his much thought into something ey! lol YEEHAA ;D |
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Post by hiphoplyricalrobot on Jun 19, 2009 22:47:10 GMT
lovely dogs mate, love the look of the second dog 'iron mike'  |
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Post by frank on Jun 20, 2009 8:30:30 GMT
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Post by quinlent on Jun 20, 2009 11:14:46 GMT
it is the same here mate time time and time
but i enjoyed this one so far!
Cheers Mate
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Post by frank on Jun 21, 2009 19:16:01 GMT
it is the same here mate time time and time but i enjoyed this one so far! Cheers Mate Will try to come back on gameness tomorrow or the day after as we are just back from France. Hope Tina will give us some white monsters in about 9 weeks ;D |
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Post by quinlent on Jun 21, 2009 19:34:22 GMT
congrats mate!
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Post by martinl on Jun 21, 2009 22:01:54 GMT
I Soooooooooooo want one.. stupid BSL
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Post by frank on Jun 22, 2009 14:34:19 GMT
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wally
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Post by wally on Sept 30, 2009 5:48:49 GMT
Hello, Just letting you know that the dog shown is Ch. Cherabah Ironside a direct son of Iron Mikes. Cheers.
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tdk
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Post by tdk on Feb 21, 2010 14:44:08 GMT
Not so sure my self, some of these dogs conformationaly are fucked and over a long working carrier would have suffered with constent conditioning. We knock the show world but we must never underestimate good construction! 3 of my old dogs are in there and 2 of them werent great conformation wise but could take conditioning in the extreme, "Looks dont kill as they say", saw many of these other dogs in the flesh, I find your statements a bit derogatory to some great old warriors.I do know yr conformationally better put together Eng would never have lived with most of those dogs. For instance 1 staff there who was fab conformation wise, was blind tho, and with a broken leg still won his match, conformation dont mean diddly squit in the pit.Where does better conformation help a dog with a broken leg?Gameness overcomes ALL I gotta say i disagree massively with' conformaton dont mean diddly squat', that why breeds are build diffrent ways, the best at their tasks (repeated winners)are the best conformationally and heart and mind. No way round that, its life. Cheers |
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Post by ianhurley on Feb 21, 2010 18:43:46 GMT
Got to say i agree with Marco 100%, it must require genetics, and nurture, the genetics must be bred for therefore these dogs are a creation, its not natural and therefore gameness must be created. We will never see it again but that does not mean our dogs do not have the foundations to be game, with selection and the means for it to be achieved again it could be. Do we really require it? in my opinion no, we have amongst us descendents of the most couragous animals in the world, and should honour there descendents by breeding highly confident, drivey and correctly constructed animals with solid temperment. Todays dogs are more than sufficient at what we ask of them and with dogs such as Marcos and Risky's, Lyndons Ingles EBT's and Lonnsdales Bulldogs, we should admire great balance and conformation along with great drive and stable temperment, after all thats all that is required. Concentrating on the head of the EBT is detrimental when breeding, concentrating on on single element of construction rather than the whole package in any animal is wrong, so maybe its a good thing the Game gene has gone ? |
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Post by ianhurley on Feb 21, 2010 18:52:15 GMT
maybe i can pick up where we left off. As i said before, i was playing devil's advacote! If i was a dog fighter, then i would concentrate on breeding for gameness and ability and not worry about good angulation and such like. We are in a diiferent game now, real gameness is not an issue, like you say neil, we should concentrate on things like health, temperment, soundness, proportion, drive, stamina and correct construction ect. ect. perhaps are ideals are closer than we first realised!!! |
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Post by nasher on Feb 21, 2010 19:00:44 GMT
Not so sure my self, some of these dogs conformationaly are fucked and over a long working carrier would have suffered with constent conditioning. We knock the show world but we must never underestimate good construction! 3 of my old dogs are in there and 2 of them werent great conformation wise but could take conditioning in the extreme, "Looks dont kill as they say", saw many of these other dogs in the flesh, I find your statements a bit derogatory to some great old warriors.I do know yr conformationally better put together Eng would never have lived with most of those dogs. For instance 1 staff there who was fab conformation wise, was blind tho, and with a broken leg still won his match, conformation dont mean diddly squit in the pit.Where does better conformation help a dog with a broken leg?Gameness overcomes ALL hello tdk I dont think you get more game than that and I think breeding for gameness is the hardest trait to breed for especialy in staffords so hats off to you |
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tdk
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Post by tdk on Feb 21, 2010 19:10:58 GMT
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